IGF 2017 - Day 4 - Room XVII - Digital Transformation: How Do We Shape its Socioeconomic and Labor Impacts for Good?


The following are the outputs of the real-time captioning taken during the Twelfth Annual Meeting of the Internet Governance Forum (IGF) in Geneva, Switzerland, from 17 to 21 December 2017. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid to understanding the proceedings at the event, but should not be treated as an authoritative record. 



>> KENTA MOCHIZUKI:  Good morning to everyone.  Okay.  Let's get started.  Good morning.  I'm Kenta Mochizuki.  Today we'll hold a session on the economy titled “Digital Transformation:  How Do We Shape Its Socioeconomic and Labor Impacts for Good?”

         This is a joint session of the host country and the community and is in the main session template.  This session is to facilitate an open dialogue on the process of digitization and the digital transformation by examining its effect on the global business models and the future workforce.  Digital economy has been growing (?) of ICTs such as AI, IoT, Big Data analytics.  

         With the digital economy as such, it has unprecedented partnership for economic growth in both developing and developed countries as well as for the traditional system of the world economy.  Under such a situation, the value of data has been reassessed, and no one can deny (?).  Here we have to think about how we can shape the economy farther so that it effectively affects global production, commerce and development. 

         On the other hand, if the leaders are both G-7 and G‑20 recognize that it contributes to economic growth, at the same time it presents us with challenges regarding social protection and job equality and to see a change in the future in the world.  For the future development of this economy, we, together with the other stakeholders from all over the world, have to face these challenges and how we can do these challenges to strike a (?) and ICT‑based automation while taking into account the political, social, economic, and concentration of each country. 

         At this time we hold closely related sessions for the next three hours with high‑level speakers as well as prominent moderators.  Because we already have moderators as a speaker, you can see everyone.  For my part, I'd like to have speaker interaction. 

         The title of part one is digitization global production of commerce.  Part two is digitization, automation issues.  We do have a Q & A session in each part, so we hope you enjoin the panelist discussion as well as the Q & A part. 

         Finally, I'd like to make two points.  First on 8 December that in relation to the (?) held in Argentina, the minister for the foreign affairs of Japan announced that the government of Japan is prepared to provide approximately $370 million from Japanese currency to U.S. dollars in the next three years for support of the ICT field in eCommerce.  This is twofold.  First, Japan has been in eCommerce‑related discussions based on the policy that Japan, as a champion of free trade, must take on the challenges of the international trade. 

         Second, it is expected that the Japan support will assist developing countries in improving the infrastructure and that developing countries, while recognizing the effective digitization of eCommerce, they actively engage in the field of eCommerce.  As Japan was the chair of the (?) and will be the chair of G‑20 in 2019 after Argentina's G‑20 in 2018. 

         I look forward to public and private collaboration between Japan and other countries in the future taking into account (?).  Second, also in relation 17 member states have founded the importance of global eCommerce and the opportunities it creates for development.  It stated that it will initiate and work together for the future of the negotiations on the aspects of eCommerce. 

         I also said in this joint statement I certainly hopes that eCommerce is conducted in open, transparent and inclusive matters.  So because we have limited time, I'd like to take this opportunity and move to part one of this session. 

         The first moderator, Dr. Yokozawa, will do a presentation.  Thank you. 

>> DR. MAKOTO YOKOZAWA:  Thank you, Organizer.  I'm coming from Japan from the private sector.  I do some advisory work to the government and also the APEC and sometimes the U.N.  My job here to keep time and introduce my distinguished panelists here that are sitting here. 

         So let's start with introducing our distinguished panelists.  On my left is Mr. Gonzalez, Mr. Oscar Gonzalez.  He's from Argentina, and he is undersecretary of regulation of the ICT secretariat, Ministry of Modernization, and he has a very skill and experience in the ‑‑ for example, in chairing some of these meetings in the ITTWTCC this year.  Maybe you can add and supplement something I missed. 

         On my far left is Dr. Farzaneh Badiei, and she’s from a school of public policy and also the executive director of the Internet governance project.  She's worked for the secretariat and she has a part in the stakeholder group.  So you can just add as you wish. 

         On my right side is Mr. Frederickson, and he is a very famous man.  He is doing lots of work in the trade, so you can introduce yourself. 

         And my second right is Ankhi Das, and she's a director of public policy in Facebook in India and south‑central Asia.  She was also a MAG member in the past years, and she also has a great goal in ITU and CCIT, and she has participated in the ICC basis for ICCI and COAE and many associations. 

         My far right side, Dr. Walid Al-Saqaf, and he is a senior lecturer of the university in Stockholm, and he has worked in the forum and other things like the ISOC and many academia‑based activities in public policy issues. 

         Thank you for that.  And I have to introduce also five very important questions that are indicated for this.  So this part is entitled digitization, global production and production and flows of data commerce. 

         It automatically means this is a very good connection is the eCommerce data economy, data drive and everything we have discussed in this IGF.  Just some specific five questions are already in your hands and it's on the web.  If you don't have that, please be at the website of this session. 

         So the five questions is the data different than the traditional eco‑system?  This is number one.  What are the contributions of the different types of eCommerce, B2G, B2C, or B2G?  The third question is how do emerging technology, such as Big Data, IoT and AI affect eCommerce?  That's a very interesting question.  And fourth, how does digitization enable new business models and encourage entrepreneurship. 

         The third question is what is the role in the facilitating discussion of these policies?  So these are the specific five questions.  I will follow one by one. 

         So the first question is how the new data customer ‑‑ how is a new data economy different from the traditional one?  So I will call on the panelists who want to be the first to answer this question.  Okay. 

>> PANELIST:  Good morning, everyone.  Very happy to be part of this panel.  Thank you for the organizers inviting me to participate.  I believe this is a very timely panel, and I must commend the ones that posed the questions because they're very much relevant to what we do on the question of development and the eCommerce and digital economy

I think we're seeing a very fast‑moving territory now.  Very rapid growth of eCommerce around the world including among developing countries.  At the same time, there's a huge eCommerce gap in the world.  We see them among developed countries, 60% to 80% of people are using eCommerce to buy goods and services.  If move to developing countries, even relatively advanced economies such as Colombia, Indonesia, South Africa and Thailand, it's well below 10% of the population. 

         If you talk about the least developed countries, it's only 1% to 2% at best.  Basically 98%, 99% of the population is not engaging in eCommerce.  So very different worlds here. 

         State eCommerce is transformation.  It creates both opportunities and costs, which means that countries need to prepare both to harness the opportunities and to deal with the challenges.  We see this evolves digital economy raising a number of issues here for governments and for enterprises to deal with. 

         On the one hand, ICTs and digital solutions allow more enterprises to engage in eCommerce and commerce in general, to raise productivity and reach new markets inside and outside their economies.  However, the evolving digital economy creates the challenges such as making it very likely that those that are best equipped to take advantage of these opportunities and cope with the transformations are the ones that will see the greatest gains from eCommerce.  Those that are less advanced are likely to also see big challenges. 

         Therefore, there is a risk that digitization will result in widening income inequalities.  At the same time, the reliance on digital platforms involving massive network effects and winner takes all effects.  In term of noble value chains, the organization and structure and product is through increased automation, through more reliance on eCommerce and the ability of further fragmentation of the different stages of production. 

         So a key challenge, as we see it, is to ensure more enterprises in developing countries had the required skills and capabilities to take an active part in this evolving global value change.  Thank you. 

>> DR. MAKOTO YOKOZAWA:  Thank you for that.  That was quite interesting in the new eCommerce, it's different from the traditional commerce system.  Someone else ‑‑ including the introduction of yourself.  We don't have ‑‑ I didn't take time for the introduction.  Please, Oscar. 

>> OSCAR GONZALEZ:  Good morning.  I'm Oscar Gonzalez.  I'm the undersecretary of regulation at the ICT secretariat.  That is in our ministry of modernization in Argentina.  I've been listening closely to the thoughts that have been expressed.  I should like to broaden these concepts a little bit and address additional concepts tied to eCommerce.  This is a specific component of digital economy, which is the topic that brings us here today. 

         I think that all of us present here today are aware of the benefits that the digital economy is bringing to our societies.  First, there are benefits of the digital economy and the underlying infrastructure.  That's the Internet.  This has allowed us to make the world smaller. 

         We can make sure all corners of the Earth with goods and services, products that used to be traded with physical infrastructure are now sold through Internet, and this is the case with 3D printing as well.  There is a possibility of trading goods through the Internet and this is on the rise. 

         The incorporation of ICT in the productive processes has allowed for greater efficiencies in production.  The appearance of the Internet of Things or Big Data has allowed the different markets to increase their production conditions.  They have ever more information for decision‑making, and this increases the efficiency of the processes.  Then there's the consumers.  The consumers, through the Internet, have a great deal of options and alternatives.  They can more freely choose which goods and services they will be purchasing. 

         For all of these aspects and so that the promises and opportunities and challenges in E-trade and the digital can be adopted by all our countries, there's an aspect that I want to mention, which is that of infrastructure.  We just heard about the dangers of increasing the differences of income between countries and even within each one of our countries.  That is to say, between different social groups. 

         This is a matter of Internet governance and the availability of Internet and connectivity.  These issues facilitate the possibility of developing the digital economy and E‑trade as one component of the digital economy, and this is where developing countries and less‑developed countries have important challenges that we must overcome.  This should be the focus of our efforts in order to ensure that the digital economy does not replicate the problems that we saw in other revolutions or other changes in production. 

         We need to focus on ensuring 100% connectivity for all of our populations.  We need to ensure equal opportunity and equal access so that the promise of digital economies can be enjoyed and achieved by all of our inhabitants.  Our governments have a great deal to do.  We have a great role to play, but so do other sectors.  We need policies that incentivize development, that support entrepreneur and facilitates the development of infrastructure. 

         We need to address productivity with strength and creating more demand and supply.  In our country we are working a great deal in these areas.  We have been working with the world trade organization and the OECD as well as the G‑20.  We will be doing so throughout 2018 addressing these topics that I've just mentioned. 

         In the G‑20, we will move ahead with Germany's ideas, and during the presidency of Argentina in the G‑20, we will be looking at issues of connectivity that I've just also touched on.  Lastly, I believe that the digital economy is an opportunity for our country and countries and particularly for developing countries.  Argentina is included in that group.  I thank you for your time. 

>> DR. MAKOTO YOKOZAWA:  Thank you, Oscar.  That's a great (?) of how the eCommerce is coming.  I'm just impressed with the efficiency and dangers and connectivity and artificial (?) in the next year at G‑20.  Thank you very much. 

>> ANKHI DAS:  Thank you for inviting me, and I would like to thank the organizers for giving a place for the private sector to represent its views on this very important topic.  I specifically want to present the (?) perspective and view and talk about how the additional society and additional economies is impacting the creation and enhancement of labor markets. 

         It's also impacting substantially raises of women in the economic workforce and in terms of contributing to the production of economic goods and creating economic value for themselves and for their families and their communities. 

         We have seen the major beneficiary of digital trade has been the small and medium‑sector businesses.  India, as many know, has close to 50 million SMEs, which is the second largest number after China.  We see the replication of this trend in other neighboring countries as well.  For instance, Bangladesh's economy is dependent on (?) And 90% of economic belong to the SME sector. 

         What additional trade has done is it has catalyzed and started the group of homegrown start‑ups, which are tapping into this environment of eCommerce and increased connectivity in our societies to produce goods and services, which have local relevance and have local impact. 

         For example, the two or three examples I would like to cite over here.  Last year the government of India drew a dramatic policy measure announced a less cash society and demonetized existing currency and introduced new currency in the country.  That singular effort itself has led to huge amounts of economic activity, growth of many companies and also helped in shaping behaviors of the country towards a more less‑cash society.  That has had two levels of impact.

         One, it has stopped corruption in a very big way in the country.  Second, all of us are aware of this model, which the governments basically use in terms of shaping and conditioning behaviors to bring about change of scale, and that has also led to a transformation in terms of how people buy and sell.  It's attracted a huge amount of venture capital investments in terms of the start‑up eco‑system.  India itself received $55 billion in investments, and the last proportion went to eCommerce and also to tech companies. 

         We're seeing local innovations happening in our countries.  For example, by the global knot, benefits from 4G and 5G type of connectivity, countries like India, wide swaths of our population are still on 2G connectivity.  Therefore, there is a need for companies for the private sector to innovate and bolt services that work efficiencies on 2G platforms. 

         The application economy in the country and in other countries, the private sector has made it a priority including many global organizations such as the one which I represent, which is Facebook in terms of taking inspiration from these countries and building applications, making sure an application works well in a 2G environment, because we want to make sure that the benefits of this economy and digital society is available not only in advanced environments but also in an environment which is largely 2G. 

         So internationally we have seen the net positive outcome of this board in terms of impacting the arc of innovation within the private sector and creating more participation and value and goods and services in terms of being a net value created to other parts of the world. 

         Thirdly and most importantly, in countries (?) public safety is a very, very big concern in terms of different kinds of crimes that happen against women, which is about the physical safety of women, whether it's stalking, rape, different forms of sexual harassment.  ICD gives an individual for a lot of women to start their businesses from home. 

         The case study after case study which I can go on talking about where women have used ICT tools to build local businesses for themselves and families and communities.  One particular example I want to share with this audience over here is an inspirational story of this young girl, very young girl who grew up ‑‑ grew up in the slums of Delhi and used to perform magic shows on the street. 

         She's a self‑taught Facebook user.  When they lost her parents suddenly and had to earn a livelihood for herself and younger siblings, she essentially started a page on Facebook called Words of the Slum, which is a precursor for a publication she's bringing out called “Slum Post.” 

         She used the platform and ICT tools to do fund‑raising based on the seed capital to start the publication and created a learning center where now she has employed 20 volunteers and two teachers to teach the slum children. 

         We think the net contribution of the ICT environment in terms of linking markets or individuals and also helping them in producing goods and services is transformative in terms of impacting human lives. 

>> DR. MAKOTO YOKOZAWA:  Thank you, Ankhi.  It was quite impressive for the participation of women and safety of women and also the entrepreneurship of women.  Also, you mentioned about the anti‑corruption things, and I think with new technology that's very important and impressive.  Thank you for that.  So you can include your first intervention. 

>> DR. WALID AL‑SAQAF:  I am come from Yemen.  Yemen is in war.  It's been devastated through violence and conflicts giving rise to a number of problems in society.  Yet, we can still see certain businesses thriving.  This would not have been possible before.  It's because the Internet remains connecting the people.  It remains online.  People remain able to communicate despite the violence that's taking place. 

         Had there been no Internet in Yemen today, we would not have learned about the atrocities that have been happening.  I'd like to recall on this as a revolution in itself.  Having something that connects people despite the atrocities and issues and developments that are happening and the very thing that keeps the world informed about events happening there is the Internet that allows us to learn more and remain connected. 

         That being said, I'm here in my capacity as an academic in Stockholm where I teach technology.   (?)if you look at it from the perspective of pure wealth and economy, you can do good things with oil and buy weapons and destroy nations with oil.  You have to refine oil.  You cannot use oil directly, which is the case with data.  You cannot simply take data and not refine it. 

         So the problem with many development projects around the world is there's a lack of ability to analyze and use data properly.  The one way in which we addressed this at the university is looking to the influence or the impact that people working in the field of data analysis can help use data for the development of societies. 

         The recent cases of attacks or promoted or used and took advantage of social media have, in fact, shown that the very people that can analyze data and use it against economic development or against prosperity and against freedom can, in fact, leverage data in negative ways.  Just as you can use data for the development of, let's say, project force accountability and transparency, you can use it negatively. 

         I've already heard positive stories, but my reflection here is that we can do more.  We need to do more.  And the idea here is to reflect on how to encourage developing countries by giving them the tools to hold accountable, for example, cases where there's corruption and there are mismanagements of various resources in each of these countries. 

         I'd say there are some signs of hope, signs of optimism, because developing countries can take that advantage of leapfrogging in some cases where they do not need to go through the same stages that developed countries have gone through. 

         Look at the mobile payments in many African countries.  We were at the African Internet summit earlier in year, and we have seen how they inspired me to look into the use of technology for facilitating trade and facilitating payments not only the level of major corporations but on the level of regular consumers, people like you and me who are in need for convenient ways to pay. 

         We are now witnessing perhaps one of the major ‑‑ potentially major transformations in payments with the rise of (?) technology for example or the ledger technologies.  These might have their challenges, but they also have the opportunities. 

         We also look into the ability of many in developing countries to pursue knowledge and skills through the Internet.  I have seen many in my home country of Yemen and other countries who simply taught themselves how to manage platforms and produce goods and sell them.

         There were cases I also organized (?) speakers in Yemen was a female that produced cakes and sold them and, in fact, became rather self‑sufficient and fed her family.  It's because of the Internet. 

Along the issues of what stands between them and pursuing their dreams is the skill attainment.  That can also be facilitated by the Internet. 

         So from this perspective, I see that we need to focus first on ensuring that the Internet is alive as well, and it's connecting the people that are supposed to benefit from it.  It also means that we need to allow them to acquire the skills necessary for them to use these technologies. 

         So I have taken this from a consumer level, not from a major microcorporate level, because I feel strongly that if individuals can attain their dreams through hard work and by given the skills necessary, that would actually lead to a more informed and more developed society. 

         In that sense, it would have a bottom‑up approach rather than a trickle‑down or top‑down approach.  Thank you. 

>> DR. MAKOTO YOKOZAWA:  Thank you.  That was quite connected to the previous speaker's speech and has very much to do with the ‑‑ with a different angle.  Very helpful.  Thank you for that.  I'm especially interested that you talked about the bad things with the oil as data and also the leapfrogging.  That's very, very important.  Thank you. 

So our last speaker.  Okay. 

>> DR. FARZANEH BADIEI:  Thank you.  So I hear that we need to have access to the Internet and there should be Internet penetration for better digital economy, but what I do not hear much is about access to other infrastructure, digital infrastructure such as online payment. 

         When we look at virus Spywares and access to digital economies or what it facilitates with the digital economy, we have to see that we have the imposing archaic laws to the digital economy and to the digital market for the past 20 years, and we have not updated those on the international level.  Unfortunately, we see a lot of development and it's great but in the cross‑border online and trade off grids, we are lagging behind.  There's a lot of local trade‑off online grids, but unfortunately whether it comes to cross‑border trade off‑grid, we do not see that much development. 

         So it's great that we have the digital economy and have access and we can provide access to it, but we also need to look at how we can update our international efforts in order to remove the barriers.  The other thing is that (?) developing countries, some of the developing countries are the major suppliers nowadays in the world. 

         The digital economy ‑‑ the digital platforms have given them the opportunity and access to market.  What we need to provide for them is better digital infrastructure and less regulation and not impose traditional laws to these platforms in order for them to flourish.  Thank you. 

 >> DR. MAKOTO YOKOZAWA:  Thank you.  Okay.  So we're almost done about the first question, but it is time for the interactions from each. 

>> PANELIST:  I heard from some of the comments especially the last intervention here, it's an important point while having affordable connectivity access is absolutely fundamental to participating in the digital economy, it's far from sufficient.  That's one of the big challenges from policy makers, you have to address policies holistically.  And this also means we need to ‑‑ the world community, as a whole, needs to rise to a challenge of providing more assistance to developing countries in a range of areas. 

         We see that the readiness of harnessing these digital technologies and to cope with the transformations will influence each and every one of the sustainable development goals, so this is not a purely economic issue.  It really has implications for the whole development agenda. 

         On talking about the platforms, yes, we think that access to digital eCommerce payment and other platforms can really help micro and small firms to internationalize faster and implement for markets and so on.  There are a few challenges here.  One is that all developing countries don't have equal access to the global platforms that we often refer to, and it's important to understand why that is the case, what can be done about it. 

         The other thing is that eCommerce is such that let's not do away with all the barriers to trade.  You still need to be ‑‑ enterprises still need to produce goods and services competitive in the market, and if you have substandard goods and services and you put them online, they're not competitive as a result of that. 

         We think that the chances for small and microenterprises from developing countries to take advantage of various platforms is those that are treating a special niche or that offer something unique to the markets.  And indeed, maybe in the first stage the biggest opportunities for especially low-income countries and perhaps middle-income countries for use of platforms for eCommerce may be in the domestic market.  So thank you. 

>> DR. MAKOTO YOKOZAWA:  Thank you.  This is not the moderator's job, but may I add something?  I think from this perspective is it's very important to think about the sustainability of the sustainable activities.  So for companies like the platform wants to be sustainable and want to give some stable services to the developing countries as well.  So that's something I want to highlight.  Sorry about that. 

         As the interactions for the first question, which is mainly the difference between the new eCommerce and the traditional eCommerce.  If not, we'll go ahead into the second question. 

So the question is, what are the contributions of the different types of eCommerce?  We may think about the B2G and B2C and B2G or C2C or anything.  Anybody want to be the first to answer this question?  All right.  Okay. 

>> PANELIST:  Maybe I can just start and give you the numbers that (?) have produced.  For those introduced, we have a left number of the economic report of 2017 that captures many numbers I'm citing here for those interested. 

         We estimate that the global value of eCommerce sales in 2015 was about $25 trillion, which about 90% is business‑to‑business and only 10% is business‑to‑consumer, consumer‑to‑consumer.  We see that the top ten markets include China, which is actually the world's largest business‑to‑consumer eCommerce market.  Where's, the U.S. is by far the biggest B2B commerce markets.  There are countries in the top ten list.  It's still a fairly concentrated phenomenon to developed countries, but it's growing very fast also in developing regions. 

         Another observation that I can make is so far most eCommerce is domestic in nature, even in developed countries.  You look at the few countries that produce statistics in this area, such as Spain and Canada, about 80% is domestic, 15% in Canada's case is trade with the U.S., and 5% with the rest of the world.  In Spain it's similar.  It's 80% domestic, 50% to the rest of the EU and 5% to the rest of the world. 

>> DR. MAKOTO YOKOZAWA:  Thank you for those very good numbers, and that will help us think.  Okay. 

>> ANKHI DAS:  I think this is consistent with what talked about.  The first is the eCommerce organization will be local in scope.  We've seen that across countries.  This is a similar trend.  This is an early start in terms of how this ‑‑ these markets are developing with the organization of labor as well as this as a mechanism in terms of trading. 

         I think two, three years down the line you will see much more maturation as both investments in these companies as well as the start‑up eco‑system and the maturity of that.  The number of firms which cater to unique requirements, I think, will also bring a level of competition with more players and local relevance will be a net contributor in terms of the trade basket. 

         I believe the first focus will really be domestic markets and cater to local relevance, and it's only later it will get into cross‑border trade flows.  This is consistent with what we see across the board. 

>> DR. MAKOTO YOKOZAWA:  Thank you.  Okay, please. 

>> PANELIST:  Just a very short comment.  The cross‑border digital trade has not flourished because, for example, when you look at customs procedures, they have not been updated to actually accommodate the flow of goods that can be traded online.  There's a high volume, and if the customs procedure is not easy, then it's not really worth it to have cross‑border trade for the businesses and the consumers.  When we look at that, we only took a step to facilitate and make the customs procedures easier last year.  So we've waited quite a long time to update the laws. 

>> DR. MAKOTO YOKOZAWA:  Thank you.  That reminds me of the new initiative in the last week about Buenos Aires about the eCommerce initiative.  Thank you very much. 


>> OSCAR GONZALEZ:  So we were talking about the problem earlier in inequality and the possibility of accessing the new forms of trade and the new forms of production that arise with new technology.  An important aspect of E-trade is the inclusion of the medium and small‑sized enterprises.  Beyond the issue of cross‑border trade, I think that on the country level, the inclusion of maul and medium‑sized enterprise into new production processes so that they can broaden the ‑‑ what they offer to the markets, I think that in socioeconomic terms this is an important issue, and they have a great deal of contribution to make as regards cross‑border trade. 

         I don't think we should all punish ourselves for the pace of change.  These are new processes that we are facing.  These are new challenges.  We do need a broad consensus between and among countries and between and among all of our realities. 

         I do want to offer a voice of optimism.  I think that, slowly but surely, we will be able to make progress moving towards consensus on how to address E-trade and cross‑border E‑trade.  This is important beyond WTO agreements and trade agreements in other bodies.  It will still be important to resolve the issues of cross‑border data. 

Privacy and data security.  Then eventually the decisions that can be made around trade will have a strong scaffolding, if you will.  Thank you. 

>> DR. MAKOTO YOKOZAWA:  Thank you, Oscar.  At the same time, we will have to think about the negative aspects of the eCommerce like the privacy protection and security.  Yes, I agree with that.  Yes. 

>> PANELIST:  Just to add to that, it appears to me from looking at the discussion outcomes that there is and over the years a concentration of monopoly of information, of data among the businesses, among the corporations to understand where the deals are made, how they are made.  This might be a hypothesis, but it looks like that, or maybe looking at ‑‑ I don't know how many of you have seen the movie "War Dogs."

         Do you remember how the main actors see revealing information about certain deals out there made them first apply and get, you know, the bids out, and eventually they win and move on to mass wealth.  So I don't see that much of a difference.  If data is not available to smaller and medium‑sized enterprises in various couldn't countries and not empowered to understand how to reach that information and how to reach access and analyze and improve their competitive advantage, then they will always be back in the race.  It's as if you have a megaphone, and the ones in front are always with the best Nike shoes and clothes and training that go to the best gyms, we can never compete unless there's a way for them to acquire the same skills and advantages, they will always be at a disadvantage. 

>> DR. MAKOTO YOKOZAWA:  Thank you so much.  Good point.  I think the digitalization is naturally the aspect of the concentration of data and the (?) and then we can have some risk mitigation and everything. 

         I think it's the nature of the digitalization and eCommerce, but yes, we have to think about how the monopoly issues and the ‑‑ as a negative aspect of the digitization or eCommerce.  I agree with this.  Let's move to the next question, number three. 

         How do the emerging technologies such as Big Data, AI and eCommerce will affect the program according to this?  Anyone want to be the first to answer this question?  You can continue. 

>> DR. WALID AL‑SAQAF:  I would like to start with a proposal or initiative I brought recently.  An (?) incubator in Somalia.  Somalia has come out of a long, raw, civil war that's really devastated the country for a very long time. 

         Since then they've been trying ‑‑ after they emerged they have been trying to rebuild, and rebuilding meant that they will need support from international development agencies, from partners who are willing to invest there.  So one of the main problems they face according to him is a lack of accountability and transparency. 

         There's so much money and funding that happens, that it leads eventually to the country not being able to absorb efficiently and leads to leaks and corruption. 

         Back to the question, the technologies that are available today would allow to minimize corruption if they are used effectively.  So one example is the use of block chain technology.  Block chain is one which in which you can transparently and effectively store data and ensure that from the very first transaction to the very end everything is being kept securely and in a way that will not be tamper‑proof ‑‑ that will be tamper‑proof.  If meant that if there are flows of funds and income coming into the country, that would be helped in a way that would make it difficult for corruption to flourish. 

         So these types of technologies can help developing countries if they are used effectively and there is a political will by the entities involved in the government and as well as international organizations including private sector to level these technologies for both improving the economy that would help eventually lead to better eCommerce and have (?) for economic prosperity. 

>> DR. MAKOTO YOKOZAWA:  Thank you.  You just mentioned about something like something similar to the anti‑corruption.  Is there anything to add? 

>> ANKHI DAS:  I think there has been conversation and there has been this concern about the impacts of automation on employment or creating unemployment, right?  This is a question which has been there for societies, governments, policymakers, all who engage on this question.  This is a simplistic view of it, but I will still go ahead and say it. 

         To create Artificial Intelligence to a form of automation which will lead to unemployment is perhaps a very high form of fear mongering I would argue, because we have seen progressively the danger ‑‑ this is no different from the introduction of the steam engine or other forms of automation which came with the first phase of the industry revolution. 

         It does mean for societies is there needs to be a massive orientation of the skill agenda.  What is the skill agenda given the youth demographic across the world, which we have?  How should (?) national strategy in terms of looking at that?  How do we look at policy measures not just which are focused? 

         When India did its demonetization and pushed it with a less- cash society, there was a structural reform in the country.  It was an attack on something which has been prevalent in the country since our independence movement, which is, how do you deal with big ticket corruption and also with petty corruption on a day‑to‑day level, which people have to deal with and go through? 

         How do you make sure that you're creating an environment, a better environment where public services delivery is more accountable, in time, and people get what they're supposed to get? 

The entire transparency element in terms of the evolution of benefits through the direct benefits transfer proposition, which, again, is now delivered through a digital platform, which is why we have the (?) program in terms of delivering services, these are fundamental strategies which countries have to look at and technology is an input factor into that. 

         I think it's very important for all of us to understand that it cannot be ‑‑ there could not be over centrism in looking at technology being the sole political goal and solve all the problems but look at the application in different scenarios.  Therefore, I do believe how we think of AI in terms of bringing more efficiencies, whether it's in the trade domain, eCommerce domain, are looking at other areas like health care. 

         Like our countries have massive populations, and there's such a demand in terms of delivery of health care.  That could be used to design efficient health care systems so that people can focus more on the preventative side and have those facilities.  They will develop over time and we will have an opportunity to see the real‑life examples in terms of how the implementation surfaces. 

>> DR. MAKOTO YOKOZAWA:  Thank you.  Yes. 

>> PANELIST:  Thank you.  I'd like to go back a bit to some of the remarks that (?) made, and you refer in this question to the growing of the Big Data, Internet of Things and Artificial Intelligence, and what is very uniting for those three is the increased role of data in the digital economy

         As was mentioned, it's not only a question of having access to the data.  Perhaps even bigger challenge is to do something with all the data being generated.  So it puts the focus again on the capabilities of analyzing and transforming whatever analysis you do into business opportunities in the market. 

         And we have heard it through reference to the data being the new oil, and I'm not too keen on that parallel for various reasons.  I will definitely agree that data is perhaps the new ‑‑ one of the most valuable resources that can be extracted, but its nature is so different compared to oil.  It's not a finite resource, for instance.  The other thing is that ‑‑ if there is too much supply of oil in the market, then the price of the oil will go down. 

         If there is a lot of supply of data in the market, the value of that data will actually increase.  So that is why the big platform corporations, for instance, they thrive on having as much data and as diverse data as possible at their disposal and for their analysis.  There are different ways here for companies to monetize the data.

         The Google/Facebook approach is to collect data from users, and you can then sell advertising space.  The more data, the more efficient the algorithms are to determine what to ‑‑ how to use this for advertising.  There are also traditional industries like normal manufacturing companies like Caterpillar or Rolls‑Royce that use data from all the production systems to gather intelligence about how things are evolving around the world, and they're using this to optimize the whole production chain, production R & D and sales and supply chain management and so on and so forth.  Then we have other companies that are thriving on the use of data like Amazon web services that provide Cloud solutions and getting money from subscriptions or renting out these kind of capacities. 

         So what I think we are seeing is that in some many different ways the ability to take advantage of data is the competitiveness of companies in all sectors, and that raises the issues to data protection, privacy, computer protection, surveillance policy, and so on.  We expect this will grow rapidly in the coming years, we have to come back to the question, how do we bring in up developing countries in this process? 

>> DR. MAKOTO YOKOZAWA:  Thank you for that.  Yes, I personally am impressed by how big structure change, even in the usage of these advanced technology, are expected.  Okay.  Any other things? 

>> OSCAR GONZALEZ:  I think that there's consensus, significant consensus around the contributions of these technologies and the efficiencies they bring to production.  That's in data and in other areas as well. 

         Based on previous comments, I think it is important also that public policies be aimed at promoting the development of these technologies and that we target the universalization of their use.  There's a need for public policies that foster innovation and competition. 

         These policies should also eliminate artificial barriers that regulations and legal frameworks in our country established by our countries for new endeavors and for the use of new technologies.  I think that's a first aspect that we need to look at.  We need to move forward with these new technologies and benefit from their use. 

         Also, I agree with what Madam Das has said regarding the need for training.  Our citizens need training when it comes to the use of these new tools in the digital economy

         I think that this is a topic that will be addressed in the second part of this discussion.  I do think it's the second‑most important aspect to bear in mind.  So there's the issue of access to the net and to these tools, but secondly, our citizens must have the appropriate skills and knowledge to benefit from these technologies. 

>> DR. MAKOTO YOKOZAWA:  Thank you. 

>> PANELIST:  I'm going to make a short intervention.  One of the reasons that information services flourished on the Internet was because of the cross‑border dataflow.  Now we let at ICT, and to see the expansion growth of services, we need to preserve this cross‑border dataflowing.  Unfortunately, we see that countries are going towards data localization and are trying to dominate the Internet by applying their jurisdiction at data.  What we need to do is through E‑trade agreements prevent data localization and facilitate cross‑border dataflow. 

         Now, we need to also consider that some may not agree with me that that's the best tool for this, but we have to also consider that trade agreements could lead to a better privacy protection even considering that they can ‑‑ the countries can agree to have minimum standards of privacy protection, and this is especially important for IoT growth.  That's about it.  Thank you. 

>> DR. MAKOTO YOKOZAWA:  Thank you very much.  Thank you for highlighting my biggest concern, the data localization and privacy protection issues. 

I hope we may have time to go back to this issue, but we have only eight minutes scheduled.  So what I'm going to do is we have two more questions left.  I will combine these two questions into one, and who can answer to the ‑‑ to two of these questions.  It's how does digitization enable a new business model and then the analysis.  The last one is what are the roles of the international organizations?  So we will combine them, and who will be the first to start on any of these two questions? 

>> PANELIST:  I can do the latter. 

>> DR. MAKOTO YOKOZAWA:  Please, go ahead. 

>> DR. WALID AL‑SAQAF:  I would start from the last part about international organizations.  That's easier. 

>> DR. MAKOTO YOKOZAWA:  That's okay. 

>> DR. WALID AL‑SAQAF:  I would say the need is to ensure more equal treatment to all countries and all organizations and all businesses and to make it ‑‑ make it clear that any forms of monopoly, fragmentation, localization are not excluding those small and medium‑sized businesses because otherwise the status quo will remain.  This would lead to a digital gap between the rich and poor.

Among these businesses. 

Additionally, I would say that they should lead by example by being transparent, by opening up their books and showing how efficient they are, how forthcoming and producing data about various projects, about how they work.  I would say this is done to a large degree, but it can be improved.  This information should be available to ‑‑ for data scrutiny, for data analysis by media, by journalists.  I often complain that there are no easy ways to extract data from many international organizations about the work through machine‑available applications and through APIs, et cetera. 

         An informed public is only achieved if there are informed media and journalists.  They need to be able to access this information, and it should be dynamic and clear.  There should be openness and transparency. 

         Following on that, they should also be accountable both to their own organizations and to the international community.  I see this as a role model to play, because then if they are accountable, then the various other players would be put on the spot and they will actually have to comply as well. 

         So these are examples of doing it.  Additionally, I'd like to ensure that we continue on exploring new disruptive technologies, seeing how they can play a role and helping developing countries implement case studies of these technologies using them as test beds for applications that may help them leapfrog in some ways, as long as they have enough protections security of ‑‑ of secure data and having privacy in mind.  These are some of the recommendations I can give. 

>> DR. MAKOTO YOKOZAWA:  Thank you.  We will continue this discussion for the international organizations. 

>> DR. WALID AL‑SAQAF:  When represents an international organization, I can give me perspective on this.  I think the international community has a fundamentally important role to play here.  We face a situation where very rapid growth of a digital economy, massive digital divides still prevail around the world.  There are complex challenges to cope with this in developing countries. 

         That means it will very hard for them to succeed with this in a very successful way without support from the international community in many different areas.  We feel that so far our combined efforts have been totally inadequate in this area.  They've been too small, fragmented and inefficient. 

         It was against that background that they took the initiative to set up the E-trade for all initiative.  It's trying to deal with several policy areas (?) but throughout the international community international organizations can come in and support in different ways. 

         We have the Internet Society and consumers international and other Civil Society organizations involved.  We have today 27 partners.  The latest organization to join was the world intellectual property organization, but there's more than 30 private enterprises that support this effort to have a dialogue between the private and public sector. 

         We put all the relevant assistance programs available from these partners on one platform called etradeforall.org.  It makes it easier to find assistance from the fragmented community in one place.  I would very much encourage you to have a look at that. 

         I think assistance also needs to be combined with better forums or for developing countries and developed countries to come together and discuss many of the challenges that are on the agenda.  From ANCA's perspective with only one player here, we offer the eCommerce week that takes place in April this year, and also member states have set up the intergovernmental groups of experts on eCommerce and the digital economy

         These are both areas where member states can meet with private sector, Civil Society, other international organizations and the academic and technical community to foster this area.  We need much more dialogue, and we need much more support.  We hope that we can contribute to that.  Thank you. 

>> DR. MAKOTO YOKOZAWA:  Okay.  Please, Oscar. 

>> OSCAR GONZALEZ:  I will try to respond to both questions to keep our moderator happy.  On the first, I think that we have already spoken to that.  We have talked about how digitalization helps entrepreneurs.  We talked about the possibilities and opportunities that technology offers these small and medium‑sized enterprises on. 

         On a daily basis we see new apps and technology only possible because they can be developed through the Internet and with new technology.  I think that we have addressed that point sufficiently.  As regards the international organizations, there are two topics. 

         First, the digital economy by definition has a cross‑border impact.  That's first.  And that does give rise to other subsequent questions, but secondly, the digital economy affects a great many other things.  It's cross‑cutting. 

         We see that this arises in the discussions in many international organizations as they address different aspects of digital economy, which is WIPO, UNTAD, the WTO, et cetera.  Perhaps coordination efforts can be improved.  That is certainly possible.  Again, I think that we should have an optimistic viewpoint. 

         Each country with their respective reality can make contributions in the different forums on data privacy, security issues, purely trade‑based issues such as tariff barriers and import rights or quotas.  Perhaps we can as I've said increase coordination and we do see efforts to do so. 

         Sometimes there are silos, but increasingly we see a breaking down of the silos, which will lead to an efficiency in the divisions made in international organizations.  Again, I think that we are taking an optimistic viewpoint.  We are looking at the different aspects of digital economy in all of the different fora. 

         Another aspect that is part and parcel of the digital economy is there are multiple stakeholders.  We cannot fail to recognize that there are actors in the digital economy that are important globally. 

In some cases, these are actors that are playing as important of a role as members of the international community. 

         Many of these realities bring about their own challenges, and this compels us to address matters domestically and between and among countries.  This is essential as we move forward addressing challenges.  Thank you. 

>> DR. MAKOTO YOKOZAWA:  So I want at least five minutes for the question and answer of this session, so the two last speakers will please help me to do that.  So who is first?  Okay.  So Ankhi. 

>> ANKHI DAS:  I'll be brief in the interest of time.  The main points that we heard is its very clear digitization has helped on development and expansion of markets. 

         As we all know in all our countries, jobs are created by entrepreneurs.  Therefore, there is broad agreement on that principle.  What I think are the outstanding questions are giving that a lot of the activities which happen in the digital economy are borderless, therefore, there needs to be a very high focus in terms of harmonization because every country will have their own national legislation.  We need harm monetization when it comes to data production and privacy laws on cybersecurity norms.  There's a need to do that.  Global organizations, international organizations play a very important role in that. 

         From a global self-perspective what is most important insofar as the work of international organizations is concerned is to make sure that global self has a voice.  There's a question of voice.  It's one thing to say that he, yes, has a voice and it's one thing to demonstrate everybody in effect has a voice. 

         I would urge the international organizations to strengthen the regional processes.  I think the regional and national IGFs are very good mechanisms to make sure that demonstration is there and people have more voice.  I would also request the international organizations to engage a lot more than they do in the national and regional IGFs.  Those are my recommendations and commissions to this forum. 

>> DR. MAKOTO YOKOZAWA:  Thank you. 

>> DR. FARZANEH BADIEI:  We would like international corporations to cooperate more with Civil Society, and Civil Society itself has various projects and has been active in the field of digital trade.  We have electronic frontier foundation, for example, that they have been working hard for a long time on transparency of trade negotiations and trade agreements. 

We also had Internet governance project and the digital free trade project specifically addressed to Civil Society to get Civil Society to participate in these digital trade negotiations pertinent to the issues.  I believe as well as international organizations' activities, we need for Civil Society participation and more cooperation with the international organizations. 

>> DR. MAKOTO YOKOZAWA:  Okay.  Thank you.  So we successfully have five minutes for question and answer.  So is there any remote participants jumping in?  Okay.  Anyone in this room?  Anyone who wants to ask anything.  Okay. 

>> PARTICIPANT:  Hello.  I'm (?) and I will make my comments in Spanish because they're mostly related to the Argentinian state. 

>> TRANSLATOR:  Good morning.  I'm a representative of Telephonica.  First off, I applaud the remarks from Gonzalez, the undersecretary of regulation.  He underscored key role played by infrastructure and telecommunications network.  

         This is a crucial part of digitalization and Internet.  I would like to underscore the relevancy and importance of fostering policies that further bring about investment and infrastructure and the supply of services.  I should also specifically like to mention three items that we think are very relevant in Latin America and that could also have a key impact on the further development of Internet for all. 

         First, the spectrum.  I think that is essential that there's a broader spectrum available for the operators.  This will allow for us to cover existing demand and bring about greater access to Internet for all users.  Secondly, we believe that it is crucial that we adopt policies on audio/visual services and convergence.  They can offer audio/visual services that allow for an increased use of the networks. 

         It's offering service ‑‑ greater services to the users, and lastly, I think this is even most important, is the issue of taxes.  If truly we all agree that Internet access is essential to the entirety of our societies, if this is our priority, we cannot be imposing taxes on telecommunications services both for Internet access and for terminals.  As if it were a luxury good. 

         Telephonica is contributing to the tax base in some countries with more than 45% of the company's income in some cases.  This has a negative impact, and the society will be affected by that.  So we call for a review of tax policy, and in a context of globalization, we see greater decentralization and there's greater pressure put on the operators and the providers as regards the tax burden that is used to finance many of the government's needs. 

         So we believe that this is a crucial aspect that should be addressed.  We would like to see this be a central part of the G‑20 agenda under the Argentine presidency.  Thank you. 

>> DR. MAKOTO YOKOZAWA:  Thank you for that.  I will call only one question from (?) and an answer from the participants or panelists. 

>> PARTICIPANT:  To the chair and panelists.  I want to talk about data, but as we talk economics, one of the big issues is data that you mentioned.  Once you see it as an economic resource, then the issues of who has the right of economic exploitation of that resource, who is that resource and that kind of framework is important. 

         Because individuals own their personal data and probably the right to exploit economically, socially that data.  It's a collective initiative.  For example, a school may own the data of the students and educational activities in that place with the Google missions are collecting data, the district may own the health data of that place. 

         So this collective (?) broken off, and the answer is the data to an individual like oil or, you know, physical objects are not relevant as such.  India is not able to do much about the data unless you attain it.  So there has to be facilitating moves to be able to help them make use of data. 

         The Indian government in this regard and I'm talking about many other Indian initiatives, there is an (?) work that allows people to give their data in a public infrastructure with the consent framework.  It relates to whether we should be talking about (?) issues and what does that mean when a huge amount of data is transferred from developed countries to developing countries like the digital trade is taking place now. 

         Somebody said it's like oil.  I don't agree it's like oil.  You can't give oil free to other countries. 

         What kind of collective ownership of data have we been talking about?  What kind of flow of actual resources are taking place and whether you should talk about the collective and digital ownership of data as well in these talks.  Thank you so much. 

>> DR. MAKOTO YOKOZAWA:  That is also my consideration as well.  So data is very important.  Because of the time restriction and we can only hear from Oscar to this. 

>> OSCAR GONZALEZ:  Thank you for your thoughts.  I fully agree.  I think that it is important for governments to offer greater spectrum, specifically for ‑‑ or especially for mobile use and in the case of our country we have launched a policy aimed at opens up greater bandwidth for mobile services.  At least to make sure that we are meeting the regional averages.  And following the recommendations of the IT team. 

         This helps operators develop networks.  Also, as regards the radio electric spectrum, I think of the new apps and services that we are talking about.  I think that we need to develop new and more creative options for the use of the radioelectric spectrums.  In some countries we have seen regulatory decisions that make this spectrum available in a non‑authorized manner or in a free use scenario where there is not interference. 

         However, we believe that also, when we look at the spectrum, we do need to innovate.  It's want just a matter of opening up more spectrum to operators, but we need to find new ways for using resources that allow for the incorporation into the market of new services and new apps so that new technologies can be developed.  As regards convergence, obviously, I think that each country has their own processes and modalities and interests, but I don't think anyone is doubting the need to move ahead in the competition of services and networks. 

         The Internet has brought about networks, each offering their own services, each country has their own reality.  I don't think that anyone is calling into question the need for convergence.  As regards tax policies in each country and in our administration, as we see it, and this is also for digital services on the whole, we believe that taxes must have general criteria. 

         We must avoid or try to not bring about specific taxes that are bringing a burden to one activity and not others.  There should be a tax policy that treats different areas of the economy equally.  This is relevant for a country like Argentina with a federal system.  We do need to review a great many tax policies on the local level, on the district levels and on the national level. 

         Again, that's on the tax issue, but I think those are the three points I was wanting to mention.  Thank you. 

>> DR. MAKOTO YOKOZAWA:  Thank you so much.  Does any of the panelists want to respond to the ‑‑ specifically to (?)?  Go ahead. 

>> ANKHI DAS:  I think the main point that everybody needs to grapple with is the initiation of the costs.  That is one point where there needs to be consensus, and the general view, the general acceptance is that the individual owns his or her data. 

         I think the main committee that we will need discussions and further discussions and evolution of thought is on the principle of consent.  Data by itself to enter the additional economy, the basis of that is defining the ‑‑ defining the forms of consent and also looking at principles of economies.  Those are the two outstanding points on which there is further debate and discussion is required. 

There's different ‑‑ everybody knows there's a GDP process which is on here in Europe. 

         India has constituted a high‑powered committee to examine the question of privacy, legislation development in the country and I do expect that other countries will also follow similar processes.  Really, I think the main question, which is before all people working in the area of data protection, is to really get their heads around it and wrap their heads around in terms of coming together on a consensus on the definition of consent. 

>> DR. MAKOTO YOKOZAWA:  I'm sorry.  We don't have enough time.  Some of the discussions may be continued to the second panel.  So I'm very happy to have these distinguished panelists and very good discussions about the eCommerce and data economy. 

 So please join me to say thank you to all of the distinguished panelists and we will keep this discussion.  Thank you so much. 


>> MODERATOR:  A heads‑up that we are restarting the session soon with the second part.  Thank you.

(Short break) 

>> MODERATOR:  We're going to start part two of the session.  Please have a seat.  Thank you for your assistance.  Thank you. 

 >> PAOLA PEREZ:  Hi, good morning.  We're going to start now.  I want to introduce myself.  I am Miss Paola Perez, vice president of the Internet Society in the Venezuelan chapter.  I'm based this Venezuela.  Also, I want to introduce the other moderator, Natalia (?) who is an attorney that specializes in policy relations of telecom and Internet (?). 

         This called the automation and employment issues and five speakers and five questions in 50 minutes.  I want to introduce miss (?) Director of the for information, science, and technology information IP, ministry of science, technology and HE (?).  (?) And Miss Vanteni (phonetic) is the officer of Internet and digital connect Europe commission. 

         Mr. Philip Jennings the general secretary and Mr. Jennings has been described as the (?).  Mr. Edmon Chung is working with the Asia secretariat Asia‑Pacific regional Internet governance forum association, ICANN with the culture and ICANN (?).  Karen McCabe, senior director of technology policy and international affairs.  That's of the IEE.  We have the first question that ‑‑ I'm sorry. 

This session will address a really important topic.  Technology automation and labor markets. 

         I guess this is a topic that relates to all of us regardless of profession, status or geographic location.  We hear a lot of statements such as you have all heard of the Israel author that wrote the book (?) that, for example, he talks about, you know, the rise of the useless class.  We hear these sort of statements, but I guess more important than making predictions such as this one, it's important to understand what lessons can be learned, what ways in which labor markets can be affected by automation, what's skills are going to be needed, so these are some of the things we're going to debate here. 

 >> PAOLA PEREZ:  What are some of the lessons learns from past market transformations?  Sorry.  Each of the speakers have five minutes to talk.  So who wants to start?  You can. 

>> PANELIST:  Good morning.  I'm (?) from the Egyptian cabinet.  In our capacity we are responsible for gathering information, analyzing it and providing digital support to the cabinet.

         Accordingly, we have been into many of the challenges and benefits of the digitization and automation area, and this is what we're going to answer in the coming few minutes.  The fact is that it's a new era and as has been said technology is at level 4.0, and many of the legislations and preparations are still at level 2.2.  We need to discuss how to bridge that gap to make sure we benefit of the optimum of the digitization phenomenon.  Thank you. 

>> PAOLA PEREZ:  Next speaker is going to be Valentina Scialpi, please. 

>> VALENTINA SCIALPI:  Okay.  I'm sorry.  Good morning, everyone.  My name is Valentina Scialpi, and I work for DG Connect.  I want to thank the organizer of this session and fellow speakers here.  I want to say that the impact of digitization and automation of the labor market on the workforce is real, is very real. 

         Ever since the beginning of humanity, it has been shaping technology, but in turn also technology has been shaping human societies.  In Europe it's been the birthplace for the first and the second revolution that represented another big wave of the workforce.  We're trying to position Europe to be an important player in the next revolution.  Oftentimes a revolution like the one we're experiencing now can be (?) but together we always overcame the challenge and proved that with our life.  The main difference with the digital revolution is the fast pace and the impact globally that we witness and experience. 

         Despite the challenges, we ought to stay optimistic by working together with a collaborative and constructive approach, we can ensure that digitization and automation will represent an opportunity for all.  For socioeconomic development and to reduce digital divides and inequalities.  Thank you. 

>> PAOLA PEREZ:  Thanks.  Thanks, Valentina.  The next is going to be Mr. Jennings, please. 

>> PHILIP JENNINGS:  Good morning, everybody.  I'm Philip Jennings.  I'm the general secretary of UN Global Union.  When I was described on the screen above you and before me, there was a rather large question mark. 

         I can answer that question mark by saying that we represent 900 trade unions in over 150 countries, but as part of the billable trade union movement with 200 million members.  I'd like this conference to conclude and recognize, of course, we are in an age of transformation and age of disruption.  I'd like them to adopt the motto, leave no one behind and to support policies that place people and jobs at center stage with the aim of delivering social justice in the 21st century. 

         At this time in a fractured world where we see divides economically, socially and politically, I'd also like to put this age of transformation also in the broader sense of peace and social cohesion.  There will be no lasting peace without social justice. 

This should also be conditioning the reflections that are taking place about our future.  This is way beyond a technical argument and a technical transformation. 

         I'd also like this conference to consider that labor is not a commodity.  I'd like to you think of work in terms of the value it presents in itself, that it should provide dignity, that it should offer security, it should provide opportunities for self‑fulfillment and be available to everyone. 

         That it should sustain us as individuals and bind us as a society.  When we look at the departure point of today's labor market, we see less of the above‑mentioned.  In this world of work today, a 32 bill 3.2 billion half are in vulnerable work and one‑third survive on less than two bucks a day.  We have 152 million child laborers and we have 40 million working in modern slavery, which shows levels of inequality we haven't seen for a century, and we've seen practically the largest transfer from wealth from working people, what the Americans would call the middle classes, to the top 1%. 

         This is not a sustainable model.  On top of this, you put this digital transformation.  Job quantity.  There's all kinds of figures thrown out.  There's the optimistic school saying that basically everything will be all right, but then there's a large, vocal voice in political school saying it won't be all right in the night or daytime.  We see occupational changes, job polarization, gaps in social protection, and rights abuses. 

         Just to spice it up a bit, from where I sit we see economic violence in terms of what this means for distribution and well‑being, political violence because the space for Civil Society and the union movement is closing down.  Then we see legal violence with the misclassification of workers who are employed, but because of the interpretation, willful interpretation given by some considered to be self‑employed workers. 

         What we should be about is social inclusion.  We need a new kind of a global deal.  We need a human‑centered model of economic growth.  We need to invest in human capital.  There's a whole raft of proposals we could discuss during the question and answer session.

         I don't want to make the chair person and the timekeeper any more agitated by abusing the four minutes that I've had.  It's practically four minutes.  Yeah.  I'm done.  Thank you.  There's more to come.  

>> MODERATOR:  Thank you, Mr. Jennings. We're going to now ‑‑ now it's talking about with Karen McCabe, please. 

>> KAREN McCABE:  Thank you.  I'm with the IEEE.  Addresses digital transformation and how we shape the socioeconomic and labor impact from good, I will speak from the perspective for IEEE and aligned document which addresses a spectrum of interrelated challenges from privacy and security and individual data and humanitarian impact including the impact on the workforce.  As a use and impact of technology includes autonomous and intelligent systems are pervasive we need such systems to remain human-centric values and principles to contribute in a positive, nondogmatic way the technical notice scientific communities need to participate in an open and honest debate around explicit and implicit values and representations. 

         They have to behave in a beneficial to people addressing technology problems.  This will allow for an elevated level of trust between people and technology that is for fruitful, pervasive use in daily lives. 

         Digitization in general and autonomous systems provide unique and impactful opportunities in the humanitarian space.  As disruptive technologies, they promise to upend historical institutions and corresponding institutional relationships offering opportunities to remit gate those setting with more humanitarian focused structures. 

         The value of autonomous systems is significantly associated with a generation of superior and unique insights, many which could foster the accomplishment of humanitarian and development goals and to achieve positive socioeconomic outcomes for developing countries.  Among the opportunities for collaboration at the issues are autonomous systems are key enables to achieve the goals of humanitarian relief, human rights, and a sustainable development goal. 

         This recognition provides the opportunity to demonstrate the positive and supportive roles that they can play in these critical areas.  These systems are related to but hold a unique place within the larger ICT for development narrative.  This intersection creates opportunities for autonomous systems applied in settings where commercial agendas meet and to facilitate demands with the programs. 

         There's an ongoing narrative on affordable and affordable access to the Internet which invites consideration on how the implementations and fruits autonomous systems and digitization are made in general to populations.  The narrative of the autonomous systems for the common good is starting to present itself in various settings. 

         Key elements relate to the need for it to be human‑centered and include the need for accountability and to ensure that outcomes are fair and inclusive.  The scaling and use of autonomous systems represent an opportunity to give individuals and communities with great autonomy and choice.  They will disrupt all manner of economic, social and political relationships and interactions including the label market. 

         There's a historical opportunity to re‑establish those settings so they're reflective of more updated and sustainable motions of autonomy and choice.  Many systems take place with advanced countries among individuals with adequate finances and higher than average living situations. 

         It's imperative all humans are considered in the general development and application of these systems to avoid the risks of bias, excessive imbalances and general nonacceptance of technologies.  In the absence of that treatment they'll addressed piecemeal by different jurisdictions and different sectors.  In that context a patchwork of policies and initiatives is likely to resolve dissipating potential impact. 

         However, some measure of policy interoperability can be served with process analysis that can be shared across jurisdictions in all sectors.  With this, I'd like to conclude my remarks.  Thank you. 

>> MODERATOR:  The interpretation service would ask that speeches be delivered at a reasonable speaking pace, thank you. 

>> PAOLA PEREZ:  Edmon Chung, please. 

>> EDMON CHUNG:  Good morning.  This is Edmon Chung from DotAsia.  We do run the DotAsia domain but support international development and adoption around Asia.  We are celebrating to the ten years this year, and the last ten years one of the main areas is youth engagement and development and especially bringing a lot of young people from IGF.  Many young people from Asia and Hong Kong, and we're proud to say that we sparked a little bit of a youth Internet governance forum movement in the last ten years. 

         One of the things in commemoration of our ten‑year anniversary this year, is we commissioned a study on youth mobility.  This is a lot of the report ‑‑ a lot of what I'm saying is coming from some of the research that we commissioned.  So what we found, one of the things that young people care most about, actually, across Asia, the biggest concern is actually employment with job obsolescence and AI and obviously automation and digitalization, the nature of actual jobs change, and that's a very rare thing.  Natasha mentioned the book “Sapian.” 

         I'd want to go skiing every day rather than speaking here, but I think, unfortunately, or maybe some people say fortunately, I think we still have jobs to be done into the future.  I'd like to ‑‑ you know, the way that I see it is more like as we look at learning machines, there's a job with them, and one of the things that I think is important for preparing the young people into employment in the future is learning to learn.  Going back really to the basics.  I think that's one of the basics of education is supposed to be learning to learn. 

         How to co‑learn with machines is going to be one of the big challenges into the future, I think.  The ability of that and being able, and that's why youth mobility index and that's why the youth mobility study is how do we mobile both in terms of physical, in terms of your social abilities, but also in terms of knowledge and digital mobility able to move around online and ability to mobilize things online including people and including machines.  I think that's one of the things that I see as being really important. 

         Ultimately, some of the programs that Asia runs is what we call empowerment, empowering youth.  In terms of empowerment, there are actually two components of it that people I think sometimes forget.  One part of empowerment is to give them knowledge and give them the skills for the future to become useless and useful at the same time, I guess. 

         Into the future workforce, but the other part of empowerment is also providing a supportive environment.  The environment has to change.  The policies that are around today will need to change into the future in what I call a co‑learning environment where humans and Machine Learning machines work hand in hand. 

         At the heart of that empowerment is the ‑‑ is, I guess, the protection of people to be able to also challenge these machines as well.  I kind of leave that and come back to a lot of this.  I think empowering young people to become useless and useful perhaps at the same time is probably something that we need to think about.  Thank you. 

>> PAOLA PEREZ:  Thank you, Mr. Edmon.  Now is the turn of (?) please. 

>> PANELIST:  Thank you very much.  Good morning.  So I'm from Portugal.  I like this kind of discussion because on the same theme we can have a different angle under the discussion. 

         So I'm going to start with saying something that some maybe some of us don't like it so much.  The point here is employment in the future or currently.  Maybe employment is not something that should worry us so much to get paid.  People working in the fields in the last centuries had the same concerns when the harvesters came.  The machines came to replace them. 

People have always been able to do other things that are more valuable and not do the boring things that machines did.  It might be the same even if it is not going to, that's the same situation because these machines are also smarter. 

         On the other hand, normally humans tend to live on a daily basis, when they get a new technology, a mobile phone or a car without a driver, they just adapt, but they do not think much about it.  So we will need much more research and scientific production to advance and foster. 

         The current generation was one with smartphones.  The next one in 10, 15, or 20 years, you should be bored with something else.  So maybe the smartphone is ten years old, and I don't know if it will continue for ‑‑ for how long it will last.  So the current enthusiasm for technology also depending heavily on our ability to flourish the future economy, because if you have young people who are familiar with the new technologies, they will certainly create new products, new services, new content.  So this is why digital competence is more needed than ever.  Thank you. 

>> PAOLA PEREZ:  Thank you, Miss Anna Christina.  We're going to start with a question.  The first question is what are ‑‑ so we have also the presentation of Mr. (?) the officer in the ministry of relations in Cameroon. 

>> PANELIST:  It is an immense pleasure to be here.  We're talking about an era where very soon humans will only need to breathe because machines are doing everything for us.  From the perspective of Africa is one which we are facing a new revolution where Africa finds itself once again in the periphery, where the center seems to be doing everything and we are just watching.  The question we are asking here is where is the position of Africa in all of this industrial revolution that is coming up?  We were looking at and many others, and I hope before leaving this place we have an answer for that.  Thank you. 

>> PAOLA PEREZ:  Thank you.  Now we have the first question.  So it's, what are some of the lessons learned from past market transformations, for example, agricultural to industrial, and how does the digitization assist in making the most of the lessons, taking also into account the context of sharing economy?  Who wants to start?  Mr. Jennings, please. 

>> PHILIP JENNINGS:  I think it's very important that we learn the successes and failures of transformation and transition.  This is not a new issue.  We have seen the negligent afforded to people at times of local dislocation or industrial disruption, and change has a very high cost.  When we look at the industrial revolution, average age expectancy increased from 25 to 40 years old.  At the at the same time of the industrial revolution, children could work.  Legislation was introduced in the early 1800s which limited their working time to a wonderful 12 hours a day, seven days a week.  The human resources policy at that time was long and low.  Long hours and low pay. 

         The lesson that we can learn from this is the need for borrowing from the environmental world a just transition.  What does a "just transition" mean to people and communities when we're facing this level of disruption?  So I would say for the conference itself, this notion of a just transition, that you accompany people in the process of change is important. 

         In many different respects, from active labor market policies to the training policy and also your social protection and social safety net.  I think in this digital world of ours dominated by the six Big Data companies who are basically hypercapitalist in their outlook and in their view in the world and business practices repeating some of the monopolist actions we saw in the industrial revolution and so criticized by Adam Smith. 

         What we can see is we cannot leave it to the invisible hand of the market to deal adequately with the social transition and social investment required.  We need a just transition.  We need a global, social deal to accompany people in this process of change. 

         If we don't do it, the social costs, and economic costs and I believe the political costs will be severe.  Once again, it will be a threat to peace and social cohesion. 

>> PAOLA PEREZ:  Thank you, Mr. (?).  Now is the turn of Mr. (?).

>> PANELIST:  Thank you very much.  I feel like what Mr. Jennings was saying, but, in fact, we can look at both sides and we can look at the benefits we are having currently as well as the challenges we are facing.  It is true that there are many challenges related to the shift of skills required to different work in the future or currently even. 

         Also, challenges related to legislation to handle different, as was said, regarding companies like Uber, where to position them and how to treat them and is this labor a self‑employed labor is it part of the company?  We don't have local legislation with regard to that, and we don't have international legislation with regards to that.  Those are challenges that we need to face as we go forward. 

In addition, of course, to the challenges related to privacy, cybercrime, data exchange, and all of that, but from the other perspective, I think we have many things to appreciate in this digital revolution on the socioeconomic front.  I'll give some examples of what we are doing, and there are many other examples that need to be shared. 

         Simply in part of ‑‑ in fact, bridging the societal divide in Egypt, we use the data coming from all perspectives and analyze that and find ways to identify the most ‑‑ the least advantaged people or the most needing people on the ground and provides them with specific ‑‑ opportunities of work depends on their own needs in their localized government. 

         This was not done before because we didn't have the opportunity to have that much amount of Big Data to be analyzed and to come with a clear identification of the citizens requiring specific needs, skills or training or specific job style.  More important is bringing more transparency in governments to providing labor opportunities all over the country for more than 100 million people.  Along with that, we started initiatives. 

         We have an initiative to create the next technology leaders.  Why?  We have identified the challenge mentioned where now we ‑‑ while it is clear there is a shift in the skills acquired more towards technology, we have a lack of that.  In fact, there is an additional point where when we create those type of technology leaders, we face immigration.  Immigration and then we lose them again.  We start all over again. 

         This is something that we are handling now by creating a sort of small ‑‑ smart environment to attract investments and then being able to keep the skilled laborers technologically enabled in those areas.  In fact, there is also a new initiative called (?) And this is very important to be able to generate things at work with the amount of required technology people that will be able to help us bridge that gap that we were talking about. 

         Part of what is good about what we have currently is it is providing additional women empowerment, certainly in the rural areas.  While it is still in an early stage, but, in fact, some of the women that do not want to leave their village are even working from home are more capable now of being productive and using technology. 

         One thing that's very important that is even driving all the phenomena forward is focusing on the financial inclusion, because the more ‑‑ we have a mandate of having no more cash moving around, but more cashless economy.  The more we go into this, this is fighting corruption, first of all, but also engaging more and more from every perspective.  Citizen, private sector, government into technology‑oriented communication and transactions. 

         There are many others, while still there are many challenges to be had.  The more we are discussing them, the more we may arrive to find the opportunity to have those type of challenges.  Just to include one more thing, we were discussing also among other things by analyzing the information that we have and as part of the automation part, we are analyzing how much production lies there and what type of machines we have so that we are able to raise the capability of our youth to be able to automate those production lines and put more AI, Artificial Intelligence, into this in order to increase the value proposition that we are having.  This would help a lot with the developing countries to move into more developed countries.  Thank you very much. 

>> PAOLA PEREZ:  Thank you.  Anyone else who wants to answer this question?  Okay.  Mr. Chung, please. 

>> EDMON CHUNG:  Given what Mr. Jennings just mentioned, I fully agree this is an important message to learn as we move from the agricultural age to the industrial age.  We learned that worker welfare and those kind of things are very important for a healthy society. 

         At the same time, as we think about the issue now, we need to think about it probably differently.  It's a different type of transition.  Yes, we want all those things, but it is a different type of transition that we're talking about here.  If you look at it, it really ‑‑ you really need to think about, I think, what we call a paradigm shift. 

         We shifted from kind of like a family and tribal paradigm to a machine paradigm in the industrial age where we call machine paradigm, is we're each a cog in the big machinery and there's limbs and this big head that is the central processing power.  In the new paradigm, we see a big paradigm shift in terms of concept.  We're in the network paradigm.  No longer do you have a central brain to think.  We are all peers in terms of peer needs on the network. 

         So understanding the environment and what we're going to as we think about automation is not just, you know, in the past when we think about what worker welfare, we think about understanding machines and understanding capital and how they work. 

         Now we need to understand AI and we need to understand the algorithms and we need to understand the biases that are behind those algorithms and also understand the networks, you know, and the network effect of things.  There are people that say that we don't even know what the algorithms are and work, and therefore, that's just how it works.  That, I think, is a little bit of a bogus. 

         Even when you put a lot of systems together, there may be uncertainties of how, you know, what gets transitioned out although the end of the process.  However, the intentions, the biases, the assumptions that the programmers created in the first place, no matter how the machine learns, is still there. 

         We need to learn to co‑learn again going back.  We need to learn to co‑learn with the machines and the policies need to give us the protection and the environment to challenge those machines and challenge those algorithms and therefore we need to move away from those algorithms. 

         I think before we jump into how we can protect workers and provide the benefits, we need to understand how the machines work and now is the time to create those protection mechanisms so that the people can actually go in and audit and understand those machines.  Thank you. 

 >> PAOLA PEREZ:  Thank you so much, Mr. Chung.  So we'll have more time to answer the first question.  So we have more minutes.  Miss Valentina.  Sorry. 

>> VALENTINA SCIALPI:  It has been discussed that automation and the disruption has been (?) however, there is a cultural revolution that is much more.  Precisely as the Portuguese colleague was saying before was just this machine is intelligent differently from the previous one, the previous automation.  So that is why, yes, I agree that digital scans are fundamental not only learning in how to use ICTs but to influence ICTs, so coordinating skills, coordinating the training course precisely to make it as (?) We used to say the court is the law, then the court must be ethical, have an ethical law. 

         The algorithm must be ethical.  We need to teach people how to influence precisely and how to design a more ethical algorithm for the law and more (?) for the future. 

>> PAOLA PEREZ:  Thank you, Miss Valentina.  It's the time for the second question.  It is, are there tools that can better measure and predict the impact of ICT on the labor market?  Are there tools that can predict what skills are needed going forward? 

Who wants to start? 

>> PANELIST:  This is something we're already implementing in developing countries.  Many developing countries already implement similar.  The fact that digitalization is providing a huge amount of data to analyze is giving us the opportunity to identify clearly the potential and the needs. 

         Accordingly, and with collaboration with many intergovernmental organizations and other government authorities, we are able to make the clear ‑‑ clearly the development maps, the digital development maps of the country and with that we come with industry labor required maps and we discuss it and we put it towards two things.  Towards the labor market itself, and the other thing is we put it towards the ministry of education to prepare for that so the education fits the required needs of that labor market that is in there.  

         And accordingly as well, we find the gaps of skills required to that market, according to those maps that identify what is required, but also what is planned through the government five‑year plan.  Again, (?) So by doing that, we are able to identify the gaps required and putting the necessary curriculum into the education cycle and also put capacity building for the people and for the ongoing education going on that is already in the market field.  Thank you. 

>> PAOLA PEREZ:  Thank you, Mr. (?). 

>> PANELIST:  So I just would like to add for this discussion that maybe in ten years machines with Artificial Intelligence, digital minds are going to do some things that are now done by humans like perhaps driving cars, but today there are other things, too, like diplomas or counseling.  In 50 years I think it's even ‑‑ it's much more -- harder to see where we'll be as a lot happens in 50 years.  But we have to be at least aware of the digital transformation, and this involves action to measure where we are and what we want to achieve. 

         In this context, Portugal launched an initiative very interesting.  It is called (?) 2030.  So it's an initiative that has five pillars.  One is digital inclusion, the second is education and the third one is qualification.  The fourth is advanced specialization, and the fifth is research.  So normally we have this kind of initiative, program, that not only goes to ‑‑ from digital inclusion to qualification and education. 

         This one, it's different because it involves specialization and new knowledge.  So this is very important in the current world because in 50 years it will be a totally different world.  We don't know.  It's totally difficult and impossible to know what will happen.  But we're there to think and look at 2030, and already some countries that are thinking about 2050.  Why?  Because there is a need to accompany all this revolution and to be aware. 

Thank you. 

>> PAOLA PEREZ:  Thank you.  Now is the time, please, of Mr. Chung, please. 

>> EDMON CHUNG:  Edmon Chung here.  Building on it in terms of prediction, I think it's safe to say that most predictions are going to be wrong.  So the tools, whatever you do, the famous prediction from IBM that they're only in the world market for five computers or something, and Bill Gates said 64K is the maximum memory we need.  From that, we know that we need to also know that AI and whatever tool in terms of prediction, could have a big era in the uncertainty.  Speaking of tools of measuring the readiness of young people and the environment for young people to thrive in the future, that's what I mentioned in terms earlier, the youth mobility index we have created. 

         We're launching it early next year and inviting everyone to join and to refine it over time.  It looks at the different environmental issues, environments in terms of the sector and employment and education and entrepreneurship, and especially on digital mobility.  How young people can move around online and also mobilize people online.  That's going to be, I think, a good predictor of the future workforce and future of competitive advantage of localities in countries. 

>> PAOLA PEREZ:  Thank you, Mr. Chung.  Next is Mr. Jennings, please. 

>> PHILIP JENNINGS:  I would kind turn the question the other way and I would suggest that the forum in its conclusions would also put in some other benchmarks for governments to follow.  For example, how much do they invest in the human capital of their nation?  What has been the evolution of this over a period of time? 

         Our understanding is when we look at figures that there is a chronic underinvestment in people in their skills development, not just from the ‑‑ from school‑to‑work transition, but also during the course of their working lives.  At the same time, it would be really interesting to look at the level of investment in active labor market policies. 

         If you look at some of the leading countries in the world economically leading, for example, the United States of America spends 0.1% of its GDP on active labor market policies, where those countries further up the competitive league are spending closer to 2 ‑‑ between 1% and 2%.  There's a chronic underinvestment in active labor market policies.  Also, to look at the bottom‑up approach. 

I know in the U.K. now we have tens of thousands that used to be called shop stewards. 

         You talked about adapting the structures.  We have people on the store floor.  They're not stewards but training representatives.  That means that every worker can go to that union representative selected, a fellow worker, and together they can discuss the training needs of the individual to make sure that those skills are adopted and developed. 

         I would say in the metrics and in terms of the data, this is also a very useful and productive way of ensuring that that lonely voice on the shop floor is listened to the and the skills developed.  I think in the face of this revolution, we are not prepared and there's a chronic underinvestment in the human capital of this planet. 

>> PAOLA PEREZ:  Thank you, Mr. Jennings.  Now is the turn of Miss McCabe, please. 

>> KAREN McCABE:  Thank you.  Mr. Jennings did mention GDP and some of the human centric factors around this.  You know, technical innovation comes often with transformation of jobs, as we've been witnessed. 

         One can say after the purpose of the various forms of automation was historically to increase productivity and reduce human labor.  It's rather straight forward to identify which task, it's difficult to imagine the new jobs created as we've been discussing this week in many other fora.  This time the industries are wider in the past because of digitization and because it's pervasive.  It requires much less investment and it's easy to share.  It's also global and can easily disrupt governmental regulations and is progressing really, really fast. 

         However, there's an important issue that we see.  Because they are pervasive, these technologies provide a unique opportunity to address human needs and to increase well‑being.  Traditional measures of economic growth are based on GDP.  If we move beyond this to measure the impact of intelligence systems technologies on society through increasing well‑being, we may invent new applications and create new markets and jobs that target well‑being.  

         For example, components of well‑being like those considered by OECD could largely benefit from intelligent systems creating new jobs in market such as in the fields of health, civil engagement, environmental quality and education.  Thank you. 

>> PAOLA PEREZ:  Thank you. 

>> PANELIST:  Since we're running out of time I will propose the following.  Since you had access to the other three questions, I'm going to summarize those questions and then we can have a quick round to address all of this and then wrap up.  So the next questions will be what are the ways in which the labor market will most likely be affected by digitization and automation?  What policies should be considered in an environment of increasing demographics in developing countries? 

         And the other one what would be the necessary professional skills to take advantage of the jobs created in a highly digital society, and what examples of innovative approaches to training by which workers can be more effectively connected to more opportunities?  And then the last one relates to how can education and capacity development play a role in this new scenario, and what kind of efforts would be necessary for public and private stakeholders to promote the education and capacity development in the both developed and developing countries?  So those are the last questions, and then we'll have a quick last round and then wrap up.  Thank you. 

>> PAOLA PEREZ:  Who would like to start?  Mr. Chung. 

>> EDMON CHUNG:  Edmon here.  I'll take just the last part of it.  From DotAsia we're engaged in education from primary, secondary to university students and the last little while.  One of the things that is important, I think, especially with automation and the future that we see is we need to de‑emphasize the information, kind of information intensive education that we have today. 

         The curriculum needs to change and it's not only about flipping the classroom and those kind of things, but the actual learning process.  What people ‑‑ what we teach our younger people is going to be ‑‑ and the format for that is going to be important. 

         One of the things that I experiment with in the coming year, especially in our sessions that have been net mission, we're going to not only ask them to introduce the subject, because they can look at all the information online, but as we ask speakers to go through the material, we've been asking ‑‑ as the speaker speaks, we're going to ask the students to or the participants to actually actively search for stuff online. 

         In the past as a teacher, as a professor you don't want people, you know, fiddling with the laptop or mobile at all, right?  But we're going to try and experiment to actively ask them to search for things and challenge the speaker over, you know, during the course of the actually training process. 

         So we're going to try and see that, and one of this is not a matter of format but going back to what I was mentioning earlier.  We need to have an environment that allows humans to challenge the future of AI.  This is going to be a learning process in terms of challenging authority but also learning as people speak and as things go forward. 

         So hopefully next year we can report about how successful or how disastrous it was.  I think something will ‑‑ the different types of format of education is important for younger people in the new world that we're seeing with AI. 

>> PAOLA PEREZ:  Who would like to be next? 

>> PANELIST:  One second.  With regard to the three questions, I'll try ‑‑ I don't remember all of them now, but part of them is related to preparing for the market.  I just want to say something that I do not believe that the digitization will hurt that classic labor.  In fact, what we have seen somehow in some of the experience of service provisions like delivery services or Uber‑like services is that there was much more employment of people that needed employment and was not having this opportunity as a side of their job or as a side of their education or et cetera. 

         In many developing countries, it was really often an added value for thousands of people.  Now, what we need to do, we need certainly to put clearly clear curriculum to prepare people properly to go for the industrial revolution view, and whether it's for 2030 or 2050, it still will be capitalizing on Artificial Intelligence, digitization, and digitally enabled equipment. 

         For that, the fact that everybody ‑‑ we in Egypt have 103% penetration (?) and I think in many countries it's the same.  Accordingly ‑‑ this is what was said by Mr. Chung.  We are already mobile.  We are already connected. 

         We have already access.  What is remaining is how to enable us to use this mobility and access to deliver service or value, and once we are able to deliver better value, we're able to generate to the country and to the individual citizen in all cases. 

         The challenges that you are facing really would remain to be in legislations, to organize properly the interaction between different stakeholders.  To identify properly through the disruptive change how we cater for Uber‑like services and put it on the transportation or on the technology. 

         How can we make sure that the labor working for such companies are protected?  At the same time, is there enough incentive for such investment to take place and for such service to be provided?  Along with that, building trust because digitization is facing a big challenge of trust.  During this whole forum we were talking about false news and manipulated information. 

         So, again, growing more into digitization, whether it's automation, digital trade, or digital exchange of information, if for any reason we face more false news or manipulated information, this would uncredit the system.  So we need to find ways and legislation that would balance between the expansion required for the digital ‑‑ for the digitization and maintaining governance at the same time.  Thank you. 

>> PAOLA PEREZ:  Mr. Jennings, please. 

>> PHILIP JENNINGS:  First of all, I would suggest that if governments already haven't done so, they should establish their own future of work commissions with the question, are we prepared?  The international labor office to celebrate has a future of work commission in place, which is expected to be by the beginning of the centennial year in 2019.  I know a number of governments have done this around the world, but they are few in number. 

         So I would say in response that this is mission critical for good governance of a nation to establish the future of work commissions with a question, are we prepared?  Secondly, I think we have to have the courage here to talk about the ethics of the Big Data companies, the big six in terms ‑‑ in various terms in terms of competition policy, in terms of their rather loose‑handed, quick‑footed approach to taxation matters, and also with respect to the voice of working people within the structures. 

Mr. Chung referred to the fact we're in a modern paradigm, but I can tell you some of the union‑busting we've seen, the resistance to union organization that we see belongs to another age.  If you're working in an Amazon warehouse and you compare those kinds of conditions to the mod Charlie Chaplin production line which is more of a laughing matter by the way, then you will find very similar issues in place.  We are seeing the commoditization of labor, and I realize you're point about this new world, this peer world, this network world. 

Then you move into the world of Amazon where you see casualization. 

This is the same labor policies that dock workers in my hometown had to suffer.  Herded into a shed where a foreman picked and chose who they wanted and when and decided the wages accordingly.  So there are other downsides to the labor market we need to look at. 

         I would ask governments as well to begin to say in our quest for a decent life for our citizens, can we come up with a sense of what is good work and what is an acceptable form of work that we're prepared to encourage, to invest in, and promote?  Then to develop the benchmarks around this in terms of what is the quality of our workforce and what is the quality of life that that workforce can enjoy, and do we prepare them for the future? 

         I agree with you on Artificial Intelligence and the rather tempting suggestions that you have made.  We have produced as a global union “Ten Principles for Artificial Intelligence,” so basic stuff really.  What we're trying to do is to turn this new human resources management tool to economic tool and business tool into a place where there should be a conversation about the bias, about its impact, about its ‑‑ the privacy involved and also what it means in that new place of work where you basically have no say. 

         I think, therefore, in trying to prepare for this new future, these are ideas which I think are workable and that should be invested in, and would at least give the sense to people out there that they're being accompanied on this journey of change. 

>> PAOLA PEREZ:  I would like to ask every speaker to give a quick one‑minute intervention summarizing the conversation and the main points you would like to highlight.  Thank you.  Who would like to start.  Please. 

>> PANELIST:  One thing is certain.  That the classical level market will be altered, and we need laws that mitigate everybody involved to regulate the way the digitization process is going to take place in the near future, because without a harmonized legal system, we'll have countries that are very well advanced and others lagging behind.  This, I think, is the responsibility of the government. 

         Coming back to the curriculum and the trainings, it is very difficult for me as a Cameroonian to identify actually where we need to direct our capacity building because in as much as people ‑‑ in as much as we invest in trying to train the Cameroonian youth and African youth to adapt to these rapid changes, we have discovered that the technological changes are far ahead of us. 

         The things that we ‑‑ the changes that we see to date we did not envision these changes ten years back.  The question I'm asking now is, which direction do we think we should be training our youth?  Actually, we are thinking that training youth in how to handle maybe a drone to do a delivery, door‑to‑door delivery, we discover some drones are operating without human intervention. 

         It is scary because at a certain point in time, we will be far lagging at the very end.  Thank you. 

>> PAOLA PEREZ:  Thank you.  I would like to open the floor for a very quick, short summary of 30 seconds each.  We are running out of time.  Thank you.  Would you like to start, Mr. Jennings? 

>> PHILIP JENNINGS:  Start the clock again.  Clearly there are many opportunities.  There are many exciting opportunities.  We see a dawn of a new way of doing things, of communicating and bringing new meaning to our civilization.  But at the same time there are risks.  We cannot leave this to the market.  We can't leave this to the big six.  The voice of the people has to be heard. 

         We want a community of nations where people are not left behind.  Where we think in terms of people and planet and sustainability.  It is important that people have a say, the application of the invisible hand of the market will not bring social cohesion.  I think the cohesion of our communities is at risk. 

         When we see some of the predictions which are made in terms of consequences on jobs, then this drives a very hard shaft through any sense of hope or optimism that people can have unless they are accompanied.  My appeal to the conference and to decision‑makers everywhere is a future of work commission with the principle be prepared and do not leave people behind. 

>> PAOLA PEREZ:  Thank you, Mr. Jennings.  Who would like to be next?  Thank you. 

>> KAREN McCABE:  I hear a common thread coming through.  There's great promise with the technologies that we have and that will be developed, but that great promise is intersecting, if you will, with trust and how do we reap the benefits of the technology if there's going to be an increasing lack of trust in that technology?  Not only in the technology but the companies, the organizations that are developing and deploying it.  You know, I do think it takes a collective and it's very difficult to get all voices heard. 

We have to start, I think, a forum and venue like IGF provides that great opportunity to start taking a deeper dive into the issues.  In addition to discussing those issues, hopefully what will emerge is practical solutions that can be tested, that can be prototyped and that can be applicable to certain parts of the world and we can learn from them and hopefully start to see progress in how we address the fear that might be out there when it comes to jobs because of technology specifically related to this panel.  Thank you. 

>> PAOLA PEREZ:  Thank you.  I would just request we are brief.  I will give the floor to Mr. Chung. 

>> EDMON CHUNG:  In summary, I think that everybody agrees change is imminent.  We're not quite prepared from most of the speakers, but also, we shouldn't throw away what we learned from the last transition, you know, protecting the workers and protecting the people is important.  One thing I want to roll out, one item from the spirit of the Internet, which is called permissionless innovation. 

         We want to keep them, however, it doesn't mean free‑for‑all forever.  As Mr. Jennings said, there's a big six that rolls on, there's time that we need to rein them back and to provide the protection and the support for our workers to make it make sense for the social ‑‑ they have a social impact on people's lives, we need to have policies and big R word regulations in place to protect the people.  Permissionless innovation, but we also need processes to protect workers and people. 

>> PAOLA PEREZ:  Thank you.  Yes. 

>> PANELIST:  One thing is certain, new technologies where I see differences between the physical, the digital, and the biological worlds in which we live today.  The weak will be squashed in the nearest future.  One thing I want to bear in mind and one thing we should always bear in mind while going through the new development process is that we should put human beings first.  We should not become inhuman in or quest for intelligence.  Thank you. 

>> VALENTINA SCIALPI:  There's new digital worlds and the promotion for the creation of new knowledge will be key, not in five years but for the next year.  Thank you. 

>> PAOLA PEREZ:  Thank you. 

>> PANELIST:  Well, it was a pleasure, first of all.  Thank you very much.  I would agree on one thing that is that what was happening, and what is happening and what will be happening is turning everything to citizen‑centric, which is very good.  In all cases it is very good.  We will face challenges going that path, but it is become citizen‑centric. 

         It's certain that having the idea of future for commission is a great idea.  We have to consider and take it forward as governments.  Also, we need to look at things because we look ‑‑ there are benefits that are happening, there are many challenges, and if we look back ten years ago or in Tunisia when the first IGF took place, many challenges were there as well. 

         A lot of progress took place, and new challenges happened.  So I think by identifying the challenges properly and agreeing to work together on it, we should step‑by‑step be able to serve those. 

I think that it is very important to have a close multi‑stakeholder collaboration on this.  This is the only way we can move forward with that.  We need to maintain the 2030 (?) because all countries agreed on this.  It will be easier to find common pathways to move forward to this. 

         I think that many important, basic challenges that we need to handle from a legislation perspective related to privacy, trust, and cybersecurity before going really forward on Artificial Intelligence and other points.  Finally and for the last thing I invite you to look one of the (?) we have done called E knowledge bank.  It's a unique experience where we went into contracting with, I think, 32 of the famous publishers in the world in order to provide knowledge, electronic knowledge to all Egyptians, 100 million Egyptians free of charge. 

         It was in order to help bridge the digital divide, and in addition we are providing from the same publishers the resources that ‑‑ the latest state of resources everywhere for researchers in Egypt to be able to prepare better for their Ph.D. and post‑Ph.D. research as well.  By this we are trying to close the social divide as it is a divide.  This is just one initiative, and I hope many will come as well.  Thank you very much. 

>> MODERATOR:  Thank you.  Well, for the purpose of the transcript here, my name is Natalia Folage (phonetic) and Paola Perez is my colleague here.  I guess he had mentioned that he wanted to leave this session with answers.  I myself have more questions than answers, however, I could see that we address so many of the issues that were addressed in every single session in this IGF such as AI, Big Data, gender, privacy, trust, algorithmic fairness, cybersecurity. 

         So they're all interrelated to this panel, too.  I could perceive from the panelists that there is discretion on whether, you know, the new changes and challenges are comparable or not to what we had in the past and to what extent, right?  If you have AI and Machine Learning, there's new concepts that bring new challenges, and the commoditization of labor might be happening again and bring you go us to I quote Mr. Jennings a Charlie Chaplin labor time. 

         Also, I could see that there's ‑‑ we'll need to talk about labor policies and understand, like, the institutional issues and governmental needs so that we are actually ready to address all these questions and that we have an interoperable legal system to address those questions.  Lastly, fairness and discrimination seems to be also a pervasive topic in all these questions addressed here, because we will need the real skills not only for the job itself but also for accountability of the system that are going to be implementing, you know, a lot of these changes. 

         So I guess, you know, this is a real brief summary of the session, and I would like to give the floor to my colleague, Renata Aquino, who will give final remarks. 

>> RENATA AQUINO RIBERIO:  Thank you for all the parts of the session and our panelists.  This was a twofold purpose session in the first part.  We discussed a lot about trade and cross‑border Dataflows and the idea of data localization and how could all stakeholders deal with the barriers we currently have to create a cross‑border Dataflow in trade and in efficient human in a respectful way to polarize the digital economy

In the second part of the session, we have seen more in detail how can policies created by specific initiatives such as initiatives regarding education, science, and technology, initiatives that put first the people in a certain region that look into regional economy and how it relates to the global perspective, the point of view also of permissionless innovation and the value it has for the digital economy

         The idea that also the technical community will invest in innovation and in new, emerging technologies that are solutions to the problems we have in the digital economy today and first and foremost the idea that we have to do all those humanly, ethically, and that we may be fooled by perspectives of time that we have a new labor completely unregulated and successful in the sense that it correlates a new economy that promotes only an economical gain for the local, which is not really the truth. 

         We are seeing more and more that there are conflicts that are issues that need to be sorted out with the impact of the sharing economy, the new digital economy

         So thank you very much, again, all our panelists for this amazing session.  I would like to thank my colleague, Kenta Mochizuki, and MAG from Japan, and the MAG members gave invaluable input for the session and helped us build it in a very challenging last day of the IGF.  Looking forward for your participation as well on the closing ceremonies and the taking stock.  Thank you all. 


(Session concluded at 1:00 p.m. CET)