IGF 2018 - Day 1 - Salle X - OF37 EU Delegation to the IGF & Youth IGF Movement

The following are the outputs of the real-time captioning taken during the Thirteenth Annual Meeting of the Internet Governance Forum (IGF) in Paris, France, from 12 to 14 November 2018. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid to understanding the proceedings at the event, but should not be treated as an authoritative record. 



>> MODERATOR:  All right.  Good, afternoon.  I think maybe we should start in the coming two minutes. 

Yes, good afternoon.  I think we should start in the coming two minutes.  The proposal was actually for us being in front even if the room is really huge, so we probably see if we can have face‑to‑face debate.  Good afternoon, once again.  My name is Yuliya Morenets.  I represent the organization TaC, Together Against Cybercrime international who has one of the project called uth IGF.  And we are here with the young people from five countries today to discuss a number of topics.  And we would like first of all to thank the European parliament delegation for coming and accepting this exchange. 

So as you know, maybe I should introduce a little bit what is the youth IGF movement about and what are the achievement and then present the young people that are close to me. 

So, as you know the youth IGF actually movement has been created in 2011 in France with the idea and with the debate that we had at the Multistakeholder Advisory Group MAG meeting at the IGF in 2011 that it should be more engagement from the young people and the voice of the young people needs to be represented here at the IGF

So from there we organized the first gathering in France of the young people to discuss Internet governance with particular topics they made the choice off and we presented the results in IGF 2011. 

From there it has been developed.  And then today we have ‑‑ we managed to have 35 countries around the world with us.  When I say we managed to have 35 countries, it means we have leaders in these 35 countries practically who organize debates on Internet governance and we would like to bring five of them from five different continents today. 

The following is not only to raise the awareness on what is Internet governance is about in these countries but also to transfer the knowledge to them and initiate the interest on Internet governance and other topics they have chosen. 

From the debates last year practically they were choosing four atomics that they would like to work, organize the debates, the gatherings which is cybersecurity how young people can raise the awareness of the young on Internet safety.  This is also a general main Internet governance topic.  It's the distribution of fake medicine online and gender balance, the promotion of the digital strategy in a different countries all over the world.  Actually they're organizing the effects. 

I would like to present them briefly and then maybe start.  We have Maria from Ukraine.  Maybe if you could identify yourself.  We have June orfrom highty present here.  We have Michelle from Lebanon.  Agy ta from Indonesia.  We have Bernard from Portugal.  I have seen Abdullah from Chad as well if the room and probably we have other young people that join the debate that are not part of the movement but we are welcome to be part of the debate. 

So I don't know if maybe the delegation of the European parliament that will be joined by the in a few minutes you would like to introduce as well the delegation to maybe start this exchange. 

>>  Thank you very much.  It's very good tradition that during this IGF we have an opportunity to talk and meet with youth IGF.  Is there any of you who have been there before?  No?  Among us, I know some of us are veterans, two three times maybe.  It's a very good initiative and a good reminder we can reach each other.  We only represent one continent and one part of the continent in the European Union and European parliament.  We're elected members from different countries.  We are six members of parliament here.  My name is meia and a fin from Finland.  I'm representing socialists and Democrats group.  I have here Julia Ward from Great Britain who is representing S and D, the same political group.  On left of her we have ger na from Sweden who represents the European peoples party.  Then we have (?) sorry.  Here I have advisors who are represented that are working for us as staff. 

So I go through the members of parliament.  Bull lock here from UK as well representing the EFDD political group.  Next one is Yuliya from Estonia and she's representing the literals group.  And then Julia or Yuliya from Germany are representing the greens in the par limitary group.  We're six members of the European Parliament and have an opportunity to have a chat with you. 

Also, we do or should have iCANN president already.  Do we have him.

>> YULIYA MORENETS:  He's coming. 

>>  We'll probably see him coming and then let him have a word. 

So we do have at the same time when we have the session European Parliament session in extrasberg.  Many of us can only stay here for a day or two out of these three days.  So it's very important and nice that we can start with youth.  Actually I'm very much wait for your representation.  What have you worked?  And I had a hint that you have a few topics you want to discuss and debating tonight in this one hour session we have. 

From our side it has been prepared that majority, most of us, we want dedicate for the multistakeholder agreements globally and then also support strongly this kind of IGF so that we do have governance that gives us the main values that European Union is based on.  It is the freedom of speech, it is the democraticic structures for societies.  We have been working a lot on the European values that we can bring on for the new times for the digitalization and digital forums also. 

Sometimes it's for the politician it's a bit technical and difficult but we've been working a lot on many legislative proposals that have been carried on in Europe.  Unfortunately it's self‑evident that European union cannot work for the global issues, but we can make legislation for European Union and for then our internal markets and the rules that have to be obeyed when we work on the European union. 

But at the same time we see the challenge that the Internet is global.  Technology solutions are global.  But at the same time we are here and elsewhere also emphasizing for us it is important that even this new technology, whatever it brings along can support some values as human rights.  We actually want to underline also the human right part, privacy, that we think that the privacy is important human value as well.  That has been carried on in a legislative that we have agreed in the European Union, for example, the GDPR regulation. 

Sometimes we do have a global impact when we do legislation inside the European Union.  As we said, at least in Europe you have to respect this one.  Then it might have the global impact, global fingerprint on the technical solutions that will be later followed by the many giant technological platforms as well. 

But then let this be very short introduction from our side.  But we are very eager to have your say and start discussion after you maybe present what you have prepared.  Thank you. 

>> YULIYA MORENETS:  Thank you.  Before going to the country introduction, maybe we need to underline two things that a number of figures, I think the movement and as I mentioned these 35 countries where the youth activists organize debates on Internet governance and present the multistakeholder approach are around 5,000 plus and active on social media.  In all these country they have the social accounts and networks per country. 

Another thing that might be interesting to underline a lot of activities that organize at the country level, they're also inspired by the European Union policies and campaigns that exist.  For example, that is why the three topics have been chosen for example cybersecurity.  And a number of countries, ruffle 20 countries have organized during the cybersecurity and they will be presenting them shortly.  Afterwards we'll have distribution of fake medicines online.  This is very much inspired by the European Union policies as well swelgs gender equality and promotion for hur strategy.  They just came to us by saying we would like to organize particularly in Africa, we would like to organize the digital for hur to bring IT and ICTs to women in order to empower them. 

I would like to invite you to present what has been your achievements in your country per continent to give more information to the delegation as well.  Maria, if you would like to start. 

>>  Maria: Thank you.  I'm Maria from Ukraine.  And we had a few events, for example, for European cybersecurity months, namely two events.  And one of them particularly was a debate on privacy issues connected to cybersecurity and while the second event was ‑‑ it was mainly about the Korean cybersecurity because in Ukraine it's a serious problem, the lack of qualified cybersecurity experts that's been growing for a few years now. 

And also, as you've mentioned like woman in IT also distributed the information about this event about our ‑‑ well, we had a lot of women in there too because the network in Ukraine.  Thank you. 

>>  Hello.  My name is (?) I work with young people.  We serve people about cybersecurity.  Last September we organize the first youth ‑‑ the first IGF NAT with ISOC.  We think it is very important for AT because people don't project themselves on social networks.  Mercy.  Thanks.  (.

>>  Bonjour.  Michelle from Lebanon.  We started our use IGF in Lebanon last year.  Our main target are young leaders and NGOs.  We had several seminars about cybersecurity mainly.  We need to achieve ‑‑ we are talking about the trending issues in cybersecurity.  And we're trying to affect all the young people and their parents also and the young leaders.  Thank you. 

>>  Good afternoon.  My name is gee ta from Indonesia.  The first of November, so just a couple of week ago we had our youth IGF Indonesia together with IGF Indonesia with support from the minister of communications and IT of Indonesia. 

Our focus within the cybersecurity but our focus is more about cyberbullying.  As we know there are more than 112 million users in Indonesia.  Half of that population are young people which is from 13 to 17 years old. 

The issue is they are the biggest community when they're using the Internet but they understand less compared to the parents.  So we focus on the cyberbullying by knowing that mental health awareness starting from cyberbullying, especially body shaming.  We had to face IGF youth Indonesia.  We gather young people, university students to create awareness to them to identify what exactly cyberbullying is and to get to know whether this has been having the policy or not in Indonesia and to tell them the most important to go together and to prevent the cyberbullying is togetherness between peers, parents, universities, schools, and the whole civil society against cyberbullying.  Thank you. 

>>  Good afternoon.  My name is Bernardo.  I'm from Portugal.  Last month October 15th we organized the IGF movement in Portugal.  It was a debate on security privacy and Internet governance to measuring what was the knowledge of the majority?  It was a meeting with mostly university students.  We also are developing together with some members again called cyberdetective with the intent of bringing, raising awareness and giving solutions to people around cybersecurity issues.  This was for example for students to help train professionals in the area with less knowledge.  Thank you. 

>> YULIYA MORENETS:  I think it was a short presentation of the achievements.  The delegation, did you have questions and would you like to know more about these particular countries?  We are an African constant tent due to Visa issues we were unable to bring one of them.  I know for example Julia was meeting in Haiti and the young people.  If you have questions for the delegation where you would like to bring this to the table and then they prepared the questions to you as well, I think. 

Q.   Thank you, very much.  It's always been a great pressure for me to engage in youth IGF.  I'm on the youth policy, the future for young people, the kind of worlds that you are going to inherit is really important for me and that you have ‑‑ that you feel that you can shape that, that own it. 

I think what I've been really impressed about with IGF.  It's not just something ‑‑ youth IGF, I mean.  It's not something that happens once a year.  It is a community that is operating and reaching out to one another always throughout the whole year. 

I have many opportunities to meet several of you at youth IGF previously.  But when I am on mission in other countries, I'm reaching out. 

And I think it would be interesting for the rest of my colleagues to know more about the benefits of interactions that you have together and also why that's important that you're not just doing it online, okay.  That you have the opportunity to come together in realtime.  I don't know if they still call it flesh meetings. 

But when the Internet first arrived, we were always talking about, can we have flash meetings.  It's not something awful.  It's just the real meetings that we have. 

I think that would be really useful.  I just want to say something else.  We are from many different countries.  We represent many different committees.  That's really important.  But we also are on various delegations for relations with other countries. 

So, for example, I met the Haitian youth IGF because I was on mission as part of the African and Caribbean delegation. 

I think there are many more opportunities for you to connect with European Parliament areaens because we go on missions to other countries.  We have that responsibility.  I think MEPs could be made aware of this.  When you're in a country, get in touch with Yuliya and she'll put you in touch with the IGF group that's in that country. 

I think maybe just address that country about the added value, if you like, the benefits of you having your network and also the value of you not just being online all the time but the value of you coming together in realtime in person. 

>>  Thank you, Julia.  I think your remark was very interesting and maybe the first question that can come, how the young people in the community of this young people in different countries can also be useful or bring the information from the youth communities in different countries in your countries that you represent the European Parliament but in the countries as you said, you're visiting.  Maybe they can bring as you said the information from this youth communities and to bring more detail on a particular topic that you're working on this country. 

So I think it's maybe the first question we can ask. 

>>  I think we have ‑‑

>>  Right.  So first of all, I think it's very important to try to make connections also with the young members of the Parliament.  It's always a struggle to get young people's opinions heard in policy discussions.  Our Parliament is no exception.  I think the average age is over 50 years old.  And it can be difficult because youth is also a relatively small electoral group.  But I think we all have to recognize that at the end of the day, the policies that we make today will affect the next coming decades and the way that the Internet is going to develop. 

And I think it is always useful to have kind of policy statements on the big discussions of the day such as data protection, neutrality, cyber bullying and hate speech from a youth perspective.  Because I think that all of the political parties will have to confront that reality that the decisions that we make today are not just for ourselves.  And quite often, when I talk to colleagues, when they really start paying attention to a topic that is important to young people is when they hear about it outside of their work.  Like, for example, if theirny knew or niece comes to them and tells them they're very concerned about something that is going on in Internet policy, I think that can have a big impact. 

But I think it's important also to realize to some extent we are no longer up to date with all the technology that is being useded to. 

Each myself I'm a bit over 30.  I think my social media level stopped at 2014 when I was elected to Parliament because since then I have had less time to keep up with trends and to really know what is ‑‑ what developments are of concern to young people today. 

So I found it very interesting to hear, for example, that body shaming is kind of a particular form of online harassment that a lot of young people have to do deal with. 

So for us these kinds of information are extremely important and I think it's useful that we use to talk about policy subjects where you would like to see action from policy makers. 

>>  Thank you.  I do see we have Goran joining us for discussion with the young.  Maybe one of your colleagues would like to comment on this question as well. 

>>  Mr. Goran thank you. 

>>  (Off Microphone).


>> YULIYA MORENETS:  We just made the introduction.  We do have the members of the European Parliament here. 

We have the young people that ‑‑ it was possible actually for them to make it here and to be present at the IGF from five continents due to the iCANN support as well.  We have to thank you. 

We have Maria from uian, junior from Haiti, Michelle from Lebanon, Indonesia and Bernardo from Portugal.  We're explaining a little bit what was the youth IGF about and it was practical created in 2011.  We're presenting the achievements. 

Maybe it will be interesting if each of you will present the burning issues that you have identified in your countries during the national event that you organized and recently the cybersecurity months event that you organized. 

And maybe you can ‑‑ in this sense bring the content and answer the question to Mr. Marby through the delegation.  Who is ready from you? 

>>  During the event we organized for last October.  One thing that was very ‑‑ was the lack of knowledge on most privacy and security issues. 

For example, present students none of them had knew what cookies were for example or they had the popup that of that appears that is now mandatory to appear and say what is being tracked and stored by providers. 

They had no idea what it was.  They would accept it without reading all the time. 

And also they had no idea what repercussions that might have and what it could be used for beings for example.

It was also the main issue that is youth using technology every day for almost everything in their lives.  But they don't have a conscious on what cybersecurity is and what issues may arise from it. 

>> YULIYA MORENETS:  Do we have another comment from another country?  Igita, bring your concerns in your country. 

>>  Yes, in Indonesia, the most important thing is finding the right balance between human right and cybersecurity itself because we speak about the human right, there is privacy, right to speech, freedom to speech. 

But at the same time there's content control. 

Speaking about the multistakeholder, when we go to the technical community, that would definitely be focused on technology infrastructure and focusing into the right tools to filtering the content. 

But in terms of the government, we're looking for policy which is Indonesia, we currently lack of the policy that can be used as a cyberlaw or even right now we're still in progress to make our own data privacy policy, our own GDPR. 

So the main concern, I guess, is have different (?) multistakeholders in Indonesia to come up to create a better Internet multistakeholders, per se. 

>> YULIYA MORENETS:  Thank you.  I think we have someone who asked for the floor.  We also have one question that has been brought to the European Union delegation.  Mr. Marby, maybe you would like to make the introduction or do you have thoughts what they're doing in other countries. 

>>  Goran Marby: I feel like I should be sitting on that side because I feel a little bit older than you, slightly.  There are no sides on a round table, you're right.  Why are you sitting so far away from each other by the way. 

Hi gun ter, hi other ones.  First of all, I'm very happy to be here.  Could I pick on some of the things that you said, which I think is important? 

I'll put that away.  One thing that surprised you that people didn't even know what cookies was. 

In my speeches over the last couple of months, I end all my speeches by saying, you should clean your underwear and your cache at least every week.  Anybody who clean their cache in their mobile web browser over the last five days raise your hand? 

Before I joined iCANN, I was a telecom operatoring we did an experiment.  We looked at cookies lifetime.  We had cookies that had a life spine of 2,500 years. 

During the experiment, go to an IP address you don't usually use and you make searches for instance for barbed wire.  Then you go to another country's story you will get in your own language ads for that kind of equipment. 

Because that will follow you around.  It's also something else.  The way it's built it gives the end user a lot of responsibilities.  Because you can improve you're own protection quite much by cleaning your cache and setting the web browser the right way and middleman VPN that takes away ‑‑ these are measures you can do.  Make sure your system is updated. 

That increases the security of yourself tremendously.  But we don't talk about that, which I agree with you. 

ICANN was a technical organization.  We are not on the end user point, but err starting to talk about it more because it's a big part of those problems.  When we talk about cybercrime we talk about infected computers. 

The responsibility of the infected computer lies with you.  If you upgrade your operating systems, if you check on the huge computer, it will not be infected and therefore it can't be used in DDOS taxes.  Because they're all infect the. 

We have a small part in that.  Because as the one who supplies the world with a domain system.  You get an email where there's a link and you see that link and hit it because it seems like you're going to get a million dollars or something.  Therefore, you get something downloaded on your PC which is a virus.  That virus is used in an attack. 

One of the things we're working with is to deliberately make sure that there aren't too many bad domainers out there.  Actually for recents or selling for bad actors to do those things because it's the domain you actually see. 

That's the first thing.  I sort of want to point out when it comes to your own responsibility.  I look at the politicians and I say, maybe that's something we can add to the ‑‑ what you teach at schools. 

We teach kids how to walk across the street.  Maybe he should teach them how to use secure devices when they go online. 

When I want to learn something, I go to my son, and he teaches me. 

The second thing that is sort of interesting is that ‑‑ and I've seen this more and more.  Let me talk about Internet. 

We talk about two different things.  In our heads we divide Internet.  One Internet is one we use all the time.  I bet everybody sitting here is doing chats and emails to your loved ones or making arrangements for dinner tonight, whatever.  We use Internet as a methodology for our own good. 

And then you have the other bad Internet where people pose things that we don't like or is using it for bapd bad things that people don't like. 

We're representing the technical part of the Internet for domain system and the functions. 

The problem is it's the same system.  So the same system gives you the ability to go online and do something you think is good.  It's the same system that someone is doing something bad with. 

What we've seen over the last couple years, of course, elected politicians around the world is now looking at it. 

You talk about bad content, whatever that is.  I think there are things that we can agree upon. 

But some of the legislative proposals we have seen who wants to take that away actually ends up could mean that people cannot connect to the Internet and cannot send information between each other. 

We also see in the ‑‑ sometimes in the technical specifications and new equipment especially mobile, often talked about 5G, that they want to take away what we call the Internet.  They want to have something else because there are so many bad things there. 

Internet has been ‑‑ the domain system has been very successful.  We've grown it from no one to 3.4 or 4.3, I can't remember, billion users around the world in about 20 years with no hiccups. 

I think it's fair to discuss many of those things.  I think it's important for elected officials around the world to have a look because Internet has social impact. 

We are not a political organization.  But at the same time we have to make sure that it doesn't take away what I believe and work for, the interconnectivity of Internet itself.  I do this and my team does this because we think when people connect on the Internet, something magical happens. 

So this means that our work and your work is not done.  I was ‑‑ so iCANN celebrated it's 20th anniversary.  That means that when I was 35 years old when iCANN was formed.  I'm old. 

And in a very short time period this has happened.  We've done everything with Internet.  The part that we still have a couple of billion users we have connected on the system we have not made all the decisions and policies going forward. 

We still have an enormous amount of questions we have to ask ourselves. 

Legislation now has an impact on how we can do things.  That's why it's important for iCANN for instance to bring in younger people, whatever the definition is.  When do you stop being young, by the way?  Is there an age. 

My kids think I'm very old. 

>>  I think we have the definition of the European Union, right?  35. 

>>  You're young under 35?  I'm going to tell my oldest daughter.  She thinks she's old.  She's 27. 

Just to give you a practical example.  Internet, the technical infrastructure of Internet is built around transparency and accountability because it's been so important in this setup that if anyone acts on the Internet as a part of this, you should know who it is. 

The reason for that is you want to be able to go after bad actors. 

We see in thousands of databases we have published on the Internet so you can always know who to contact if something goes on. 

Here comes GDPR.  And we don't have an opinion about GDPR legislation.  GDPR has helped at least me in my community to talk more about privacy. 

But it's also the fact that inside us, inside our systems, for instance, in policies set by IGF, there are names.  Everybody wants to know who writes the standard so we know it's not a bad intent. 

We store this information for a very long time. 

We have another one who is called a whole system which is not all the users over the world but a dough nan system which is used for antiabuse work. 

Right now, I think, we have to continue our work to make sure that we don't break what is essentially for transparency and accountability. 

And no one can say we have all the answers.  Our methodology is to bring people in from all parts, all parts of the community, young, old, different countries, different backgrounds, different ways of looking at it and try to find a consensus going forward.  But it won't be easy when you have legislation. 

I picked on both of your things.  No one has the answers.  Walk in and have those opinions because your voice counts in this. 

Help us to shape not only the existing 4.2 billion users, whatever it is, but the next billion users because we have many, many challenges to go.  Thank you. 

>> YULIYA MORENETS:  Thank you, Mr. Marby.  It was a lot of things that you put on the table very important issues.  Actually about the voice of the young, I think you have to advertise your shirts which is every voice counts.  We will make sure you have one. 

I think Bernardo from Portugal was saying something to me when you raise the question of cookies.  This is the most burning question and we wanted to present this to the European Parliament as well.  This tool, I think it's a good momentum. 

>>  Bernardo: I referred to my presentation now to (?) we are developing with some students from our university back in Portugal a game called cyberdetective which has the intent of educating people on these matters.  For example, the first prototype presents a fishing case. 

It shows what happened, how it happened and helps the person try to discover where to go to, how to solve the issue, how to get the person to get his phone infected with a malware which encrypts the device with ransom aware and helps to go to the authorities.  How to recover data. 

Beyond the masses with this kind of tool is to educate law enforcement which many times they don't know how to proceed in these cases. 

We're also looking for political support for development in the solution of this because we think it's good for schools to start teaching cybersecurity. 

We believe that it might be,for example, a good tool to do so. 

>> YULIYA MORENETS:  I don't know if the European delegation, Marby would like to wrap on this if maybe you have questions to the young people who are born already.  I see many signs on this side willingness to comment and give some answers that EU we have issues of cookies on the legislative table.  Julia? 

>>  (Off Microphone).

>> YULIYA MORENETS:  We have first and then Julia.  If it's okay, three in a row. 

>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Thank you, I'm really enjoying this conversation.  Now, I have mother she's 86 years old.  She's real active on Facebook.  Yesterday in the evening she called me and said, I've broken my Facebook.  I posted and there were only like (?) and my youngest son who is 12 years old, he was able to explain what was going on. 

But I have a feeling that we have several vulnerable groups on the Internet.  I would not exclude this old ladies like my mom. 

I understand we're speaking with young people.  But anyway, there are those who are eager to believe this fake news like this. 

But it was speaking about, I was happy to listen about this, several of you mentioned we have to teach it at school. 

I believe in December the open Parliament will adopt an initiative but still report (?) this is about education in digital era. 

This is exactly about the thing that we have in European Union, we have several problems.  The first one ‑‑ everybody knows that if you graduate from school, it's absolutely that you have ‑‑ you're supposed to have certain set of skills in math, in languages, in history, but not in IT. 

There is just no description.  What are basic or not basic digital skills? 

Another thing is that we don't have professional description of what is IT teacher?  Sometimes these are just people who are doing programming somewhere.  Then they come to school.  They teach something and they go away.  It just doesn't work in a proper way. 

The result is even, you Loretta, you will know her when she gets elected to the Parliament.  She's lagging behind in her social media which happened in four years.  Sorry for bringing you as an example. 

But the main point is that we have to learn to teach people how to learn for all their life.  This is not a toy.  This is a tool. 

But we have lack of teachers who are able to use this tool and to understand how to do it.  And this is the main problem which we have to address in European Union and whatever. 

On the other hand, we all know that education is maybe one of most conservative things ever where when Paris and France, if I remember properly, in French schools, it's not allowed to enter a lesson with your mobile phone. 

I'm not going to criticize this decision or make a decision if it is right or if it is wrong, but it still obviously doesn't work. 

And if our children are sleeping with them, we have to teach them how to do it in the proper way. 

I believe that maybe this support and this approach will be kind of first step, but the problem is that the thing is developing really fast.  We have to teach them at school like every day. 

Another thing is that your young people and Julia said about these meetings.  The decision makers and Julia was right we're kind of a little bit older than you. 

We had this big discussion about copyright, about AMS and other things.  I had a feeling that this discussion are moving in parallel. 

We are old fashioned paper, newspaper readers.  And you are Internet.  There's a lack of link between generations. 

It's really sad to see that, yes, there are like six young people on the other side of this big circle table.  We are old politicians kind of. 

Please, be more active and write and help us to reach young people and children.  This is really important.  Thank you.  Yunchts thank you so much for this comment.  I think it was another member of the European Parliament who wanted to take the floor. 

>> AUDIENCE MEMBER:  Thank you very much.  My name is Gunar from Sweden.  I'm reflecting about the way we are talking about the Internet. 

I think a huge problem lies in the fact that too many tend to think about Internet as a special thing, dramatic thing, magic, or mysterious or something very futuristic instead of understanding this is in the main core of our society today. 

This is how we train.  This is how we learn.  This is how we follow media.  This is how we socialize, et cetera. 

And I think a lot of the problems that you have raised and that are raised everywhere about bullying on the net or about cybersecurity is to understand that the Internet must be seen as a quite normal thing.  The rules we have in society needs to be applied on the Internet as well. 

Instead, we're very open to everything around.  We try to regulate the Internet in order to achieve something that may not be the firsthand problem.  I think if anyone is bullying someone else, we need to enforce the rules we have in society. 

Fake medicine, the same thing.  It is no difference between fake medicine on the Internet and fake medicine in a shop or close to the harbor somewhere where someone is trying to market fake medicine, et cetera, et cetera. 

I think the main progressive step would be to start to understand that this is the core and main part of our society.  Also meaning that of course education must be about how you safeguard yourself on net regarding cookies and regarding all the other things about not only washing your clothes but emptying the cache, et cetera. 

So I think in some way a lot of people always want to do this.  So this thing about generations ‑‑ I think this is much more about how close we are to the Internet and how we use the Internet. 

And a problematic thing is far too many people still believe that the Internet is a very, very special thing instead of understanding that this is the way we work, we read, and socialize. 

At the same time we're not understanding the impact that the Internet makes everything much more accessible and much sfaster and you can distribute things much more.  It's free to distribute, so to say.  We need to understand this logic in order to safeguard in that the normal rules of society can be enforced on the net. 

I think a lot of the problem that you are raising can be solved in an undramatic way. 

>> YULIYA MORENETS:  Thank you once again. 

>>  I wanted to come back on the question raised by the colleague from Indonesia about the balance between human right and protecting people on line.  I think this is a very important discussion that we are also having on a daily basis. 

I think it's important not to look for very simplistic solutions, because sometimes we come up with an idea and we end up hurting the people that we are trying to protect. 

So, for example, in Germany where I'm from we had a big discussion about a real name policy.  This was also a big issue on Facebook, whether people have to use their real name when they communicate online. 

And the theory was that if you force everybody to disclose their identity, then they will behave properly.  But actually what we are seeing is that a lot of people are completely comfortable to post racist comments and sexist comments under their real name because they know it will not have legal consequences. 

But the victims actually are very afraid of using, for example, social media under their real names if they're a victim of stalking, for example.  So I think it's always important to look at it from these both sides.  You mentioned content filtering in particular. 

I have a very strong opinion which is content filtering does not work.  We are ‑‑ I think putting too much trust into technology to make very difficult decisions about right and wrong. 

So just to give you a few examples.  In the discussion about terrorist content online, we have seen some online platforms automatically removing documentations of human rights violations in Syria because there was a DIASH flag or something that made it look like terrorist propaganda which actually it was the exact opt zit.  It was the documentation of terrorist crimes. 

Another example was that recently we received quite a lot of complaints from Twitter users in Bulgaria. 

Now Bulgaria is a regular country in the EU.  One of the things that is different from other countries is that they use the sir illic alphabet so they don't communicate in the Latin alphabet that is used in most European countries and in the U.S.


The automatic algorithms identified a lot as Russian bots because they were use the ser illic alphabet and might be mentioning some popular accounts. 

These kind of mistakes can happen really quickly if there is no human control. 

I think it's also important to recognize that these filters are not created in a vacuum.  They are written by people, by software engineers who have their own biases.  Usually they are rich, white, and male.  And they may not have the same perspectives as everybody else. 

So I'm very skeptical towards trying to solve social problems with technology which is a bit also the point that Guna made if we have a social problem such as bullying or harassment and we don't have the social norms in place in a society that we actually want to protect the are victims, then trying to try to find a technological fix for it is not going to work. 

>> YULIYA MORENETS:  Thank you so much for this statement.  I don't know if the other members of the European Parliament would like to make comments.  If you will allow me I would like to follow what you just said about the victims. 

It's one of the issues which came from the majority of events organized in countries by the youth IGF on cybersecurity.  Actually it's victim protection. 

I would like to call on the European Parliament to help because we don't really have the policy mechanisms today on how to protect victims of the cybercrime victims online. 

This came regularly from these meetings and we think very important and would like to bring to you.  In that way you can do something from legal and policy perspective. 

And if you allow us to take the call the colleague what you said about education and allow us to send you this prototype on educational cyberdetective.  I think the young people from Portugal would be more than happy to spread this and how it can be used and incorporate by the policy mechanisms as well. 

I think we do have a few minutes left.  I need to introduce, because the lady and the youth IGF Chad was lost in the room.  Just to introduce quickly and then maybe go to your comment and then we introduce the youth IGF Chad and one question from Lebanon and then we have to close practically.  Thank you.  Please, sir. 

>>  Thank you, I'm Jonathan bull lock.  I represent UK and the united kink dom in the UFDD group.  I want to reiterate what Julia said there because often things are done with the best of intention and create a far worse situation. 

For example, many politicians throughout Europe now, in my view quite rightly concerned about the issue of immigration. 

Because they're concerned about immigration and want to talk about this issue, they sometimes get either no platform or stopped from talking about it which is, you know, totally greans freedom of speech and a problem. 

For example, in the UK with had a problem with grooming gangs in small towns which are mainly of Muslim background.  This is a serious issue.  But because people are so scared of political correctness and so scared of saying the wrong thing on the Internet or what have you, the issue has been buried rather than talked about and solved. 

So I want to support what's being said about the things often going wrong when things are done with the best of intention but end up banning in a way free speech or an approach.  Thank you very much. 

>> YULIYA MORENETS:  Thank you once again.  I think we agree.  I would like just to quickly you have two questions.  I don't know about the time which was by the delegation. 

I would like to quickly introduce the colleague from Chad.  She would like to at least introduce yourself if you can take just quickly ‑‑

>>  Good morning.  (Speaking non‑English language).

>>  I think I have to translate.  There is no translation.  I don't think there's a possibility.  Practically ‑‑ they are mostly in French.  In Chad as she was saying she represent the IGF Chad.  It was their third edition this year. 

They have organized and elected a new committee as well. 

The last activity was also on awareness raising on safe and responsible use of Internet which is a big concern in Chad as well. 

We can see it's not only the European element but all over the world. 

I think Michelle from Lebanon, you wanted to bring just one ‑‑ two sentences, please. 

>>  Michelle: Well, the technical issues and infected devices, our main concerns are identity theft and the freedom of speech on social media. 

In Lebanon we have lack of legislation about these issues.  And the people are confusing between the freedom of speech and insulting each other. 

So I would like to know how are you dealing with this in the European countries? 

>> YULIYA MORENETS:  Thank you.  A quick question.  I think Geta I think you have a quick question as well.  We will be going to the delegation and closing.  Please.  Quickly. 

>>  Geta: I would like to add a statement from Yuliya from the European Parliament from Germany.  I completely agree because right now I guess Internet is no longer as a technology tool but more like a social phenomena which has ‑‑ I completely agree with the issue that we are having right now. 

Instead of making tools for filtering content online but giving awareness to the young people.  But in here also, especially in developing countries speaking about Indonesia, I think the young people we would like to have an Internet still open and inclusive which is very important to have a collaborations. 

As we know Internet ‑‑ damage online is a huge issue in Indonesia, whether people in a very eastern or western Indonesia knowing about Internet, knowing about social media, but they have no idea how to use it wisely.  

So the collaborations, I do believe the collaborations between the government, the private sector, the academia and us as a civil society is very important to actually make it happen.  Thank you. 

>> YULIYA MORENETS:  Thank you.  We are back to the European Parliament delegation.  Julia, do you have other questions as well? 

>>  Julia: I think there's ‑‑ there are ‑‑ the public's fear, wherever it is, is a place for for discussion, debate, free speech, people to present their views.  That's really important. 

We need citizenship education and generally we need nor citizenship education in order for people to understand that that is part of how you have a more connected, more engaged, more participantive society. 

I think what has been happening is there have been ‑‑ there has been a lot of false accusations about things.  There's been such a lot of fake news.  You see what is happening in the UK.  What is happening with the Trump elections which is this interference on the Internet from foreign governments, the large platforms flooding people's gadgets with all kinds of mistruths, all kinds of encouragements for hatred. 

This was even true in the Brazil elections recently.  I do a lot of work in Brazil.  I know it wasn't so much Facebook but what's app messages which were encouraging people. 

What I'm really worried about is you have violence online.  You have violence and threats online and people feeling that this is a space where they can say the things they wouldn't say face‑to‑face to each other. 

But when politicians are making these kinds of untrue statements and they're encouraging, it actually ‑‑ it gets ripped up by the right wing press and ends up in real violence.  What is happening on the Internet there's a real responsibility actually from everybody at all levels from people on the ground right through to the policy makers and the elected politicians to really behave in a much more ‑‑ in a much more considered way about the way that they are speaking about things. 

So for me I think citizenship education and including in that digital and media literacy so that people can be really, really informed about what is real, what is not, and about their responsibilities. 

I'm very proud that in my region at Selfridge university, they had a research program with young people about fake news, about cybersecurity, which I can share with you if ‑‑ I'll put a link up to it so that you can look at it on my Twitter feed.  Okay? 

It was reported by a really excellent magazine called the conversation which is an online magazine that works with experts.  It's very important that we continue to work with experts.  It works with experts from the academic world who are having their papers, discussions, their debates published in a very open way. 

So it's not like you're an academic and you have to get access to really complicated way.  They're written in a very digestible form for everybody to look at. 

I would also like to say I was speaking at gold Smith's university last Monday on human rights and technologies.  There's a new think tank called Britain and Europe which is really concerned about a lot of the freedoms and the human rights and citizenship issues which are really relevant to the European values right now. 

>> YULIYA MORENETS:  Thank you so much.  Do we have other comments on the Dell he gation. 

>>  We are over time and there is an opening ceremony with the president of the country.  I wanted to thank on behalf of our dedication and not everything can be legislated.  So now we have the new forums and it brings a lot to the big community that we can all share.  So it brings also the responsibility of everyone joining.  It's not only nationality but our global Internet. 

I think the best hint that I have heard that we can all start from thinking that we put online, is this something you would like your daughter to see and read?  Because it's common ‑‑ it's fair for everyone.  Sometimes there's something you can talk among the old people or you may talk among your fellows. 

But it turns out to be not respecting the freedom of speech if you insult other people or group or individuals.  And that is, I think the best way to make a difference when it's using the right to speech and propose your own opinion and then when it's really discriminating the rights of the others. 

But thank you so much for a very interesting topic that you brought on board in this meeting and good luck for your future job as well. 

>>  We have to thank the delegation for accepting and for being here with us as well as the iCANN.  I think it was a great responsibility and if we can repeat this kind of meetings to make a tradition of this, it will be great for the young people.  Thank you again. 

If you just will give us two minutes to take it together.  It will be great as well.  Thank you.