IGF 2018 - Day 2 - Salle IV - WS239 Online child sexual exploitation - risks and response

The following are the outputs of the real-time captioning taken during the Thirteenth Annual Meeting of the Internet Governance Forum (IGF) in Paris, France, from 12 to 14 November 2018. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid to understanding the proceedings at the event, but should not be treated as an authoritative record. 



>> LAURA TURNER:  Good morning, everybody.  I welcome you to the chart.  I am glad do see many faces, familiar and non‑familiar people coming to this session which is a giant corporation of several organizations around the world that are dealing with the problem of online child sexual exploitation.

We know 1/3rd is under the age of 18.  It is more or less 50% to many developing countries.  Many young people are using the internet.  They are facing heinous crimes when being online.  Their images are produced and put online and we will hear from the excellent speakers around the panel how the situation is in various countries.

In the first one, we are setting the scene or the problem and then second round, we will speak about responses to the problem of probably solutions from the technical side as well as from the legislation side.

I will introduce the speakers when it is their turn to speak.  So let me start first with my left side to representing here on the panel.  He has long‑standing experience and child protection issues and has been working for several years and he will first start with his statement.

>> Aicha:  I will start by saying unlike some other issues you may be listening to at IGF, this session at least with the very serious issue that we all have to come together.  And the reason why I'm saying this is because we're talking about something very, very serious related to children, the sexual abuse and exploitation of children first related by digital technologies are online.  And the reason why we are here is to speak about not only the issue itself.  I will be followed by Susie who will give you more details on the extent that children are facing that are really damaging consequences.  And what we are seeing in terms of technology first related to crimes against them.

We know children around the world as was mentioned, they are influenced by the use of technology.  When we say that, it's production of child sexual abuse.  That is the distributed through the online medium.  And read the advancements and know the encryption and the ease of access, the ease of storage has really compounded the problem for law enforcement rollover.  And this is such a serious challenge that back, you know, what we have seen over the years is the increase in the volume, the severity of the crimes against children, children as low as in their womb, mothers’ womb are being paragraphed through sonar and ultrasound in anticipation of the baby being born so they can be abused.

And just to say that the volume of this images is becoming unmanageable, the severity of the crimes being really horrendous and the world came together in 2012 as a global attempt within the global alliance against child sexual abuse and exploitation.  There was an initiative between the European Commission and attorney general where member states came together to take some introductions.  Some of the core principles of those actions were to, you know, have clear methods of identifying victims and providing services for them.  Very clear messages for offenders for law enforcement to detect online crimes and to find vendors raising awareness globally and removing the child sexual abuse materials.  So those were the clear four principles on which the global alliance started.

In 2012 and 2013, they expanded it to many more countries.  In 2014 championed by the then prime minister of the UK, an initiative was formed.  And that again reiterated the principles that was led in the global alliance principle and that brought together member states industry Civil Society together to take some combination and common goal.  And each one of them decided to contribute in their own way.  And based on that, the initiative was formed which later on got launched with the global alliance that we protect global alliance against child sexual exploitation online.

What we're going to do in this section, I would probably pass it on to Susie very soon, but we have to come up with a very wholistic response.  It's not a problem that only law enforcement can tackle alone.  It's not a problem that technology industry can solve alone.  It's not a problem that Civil Society can solve alone.  It's a collective effort, I mean, it's a global effort.  We know Internet is across the globe.  So the response that's required is both at the national level.  We will talk about that maybe in the second session where we'll talk about what are the different comparabilities to really address the different issues that overlay a child who is being sexually exploited online and different mechanisms that is required.  So one of the core outcome of the protect is modern national response which is a guide that helps the member states to take proper action in order to fight this issue.  And we will also talk about, you know, how ‑‑ and Susie will talk about the threat assessment launched just recently.  That paints the picture where we are in terms of the pending scenario and what children are facing.  I would also in the second half, you know ‑‑ sorry.  I will just mention that this will be launched today.  We are launching the response brochure at the IGF.  I will talk more about this in the second half.  Thank you.

>> SUSIE HARGREAVES:  Thank you for setting the scene for us so far.  You have already referred to the reprotect initiative and Susie Hargreaves, chief executive of the foundation will go into more in detail.  Since the Internet watch foundation is one of the major players in fighting sexual abuse.  So please, Susie, it's your turn.

>> SUSIE HARGREAVES:  Thank you very much and thank you and John.  Thank you, everyone, for coming today.  My name is Susie Hargreaves.  I am also here in my capacity as a board member.

I'm going to talk about the gloom threat assessment, but just before then, I will tell you what I do with my day job.  The AWF is a hotline and our mission is the elimination of online sexual abuse.  We have been going for 22 years.  We have 142 members who include the biggest companies in the world, Apple, Amazon, Facebook and Google.  It pays to clean up its own networks.  Since we started 22 years ago, we removed 22,000 web pages and that includes videos.

We will talk more.  What we protect was established.  It was really important that we looked at this as a global issue and we really tried to clarify what key issues were and what child exploitation look like.  So basically the areas that we defined was that CSC as we call it, child sexual exploitation can include, but it is not limited to the production, and distribution with child sexual abuse and videos.  That is Csom.  It also includes increasing online grooming with the intent of sexual exploitation.  This includes manipulating and cohearsing children to do sexual acts online.  The biggest threat is massive increase in live streaming of child sexual abuse.

To highlight a global response to this to the connected nature of the Internet, we protect, commissioned a global threat assessment and have identified five areas than drive the crime of online child sexual abuse.  The first one is the most insidious form of modern crime.  Civil Societies are connected via the internet and it's becoming easier than ever for those that want to sexually exploit children to make contact with victims wherever they are in the world.

The second area is developments and technology are increasingly complex and have generated a paradigm shift for online exposure, but also offenders ability to share child sexual accuse material secure lie and to impact anonymous with children and other offenders online.  Offenders leaf technology in a way that never used to hatch and that includes development and encryption and hidden services called darknet.  To give you an example of our work, 80%f the content we see is free.  80% is commercial content which is behind payment walls.  So many, many networks and hidden services where like‑minded  people can come together to share information.  We know one service has 17,000 registered members with subscribers that are required to revalidate their membership monthly by uploading 20 images or a two‑minute video of an infant or model being abused.  The scale is growing rapidly.  You will hear us talk about volumes.  In 2017, the national center for exploited children and in the U.S., they reported a 700% increase in the industry with child Sual abuse material between 2013 and 2017.  The presence of a video camera on every device and computer has exacerbated live streaming and extortion.  We have seen children 3 and 5‑year‑olds in their bedrooms being coerced and being sexually exploited.  Nobody knows how many images are out there, but we know we're dealing with millions of images and many of these are duplicates.

The fourth issue is that children who are victims of child sexual abuse can be victims from birth to 0 to 18.  And our most recent report we show over 132,000 reports we took in 2017.  55% of the children were aged under 10.  I will share with you that we looked at the last three years and 65% of the images of children were category A.  Category Ain the UK includes rape and sexual torture.  The younger the child, the worse the left of abuse.  Research indicates that children who are victims of online sexual abuse suffer the same repercussions and impact on their lives as children of physical abuse offline as well and that includes high rates of isolation, mental health problems, suicide attempts, alcohol and legal drug dependencies and likely to be revictimized later in life.  A child who has really been sexual abused and every time someone looks at that, they are victimized.  Some young women I met in the states that are repeatedly abused and videos were shared online were ages from 14 to 15 and one of them in their 20s said she had someone come up to her in a structure and say and identified her from pictures they had seen online.  She said I feel physically scared every moment of my life.  It is essential that we emphasize the need for us to work together on this issue.  This is why the global threat assessment is so important.  We all need to step up to work together.  So thank you so much for listening and look forward to future discussions about solutions.  Thank you.

>> LAURA TURNER:  Thank you for explaining more in detail.  One further question.  Could you give us some statistics from the Internet the children that are depicted and where these images come from?  Do you have any figures?

>> SUSIE HARGREAVES:  We can provide anecdotal data.  We categorize children we see in terms of diversity age so we can tell you those factors.  What we can tell you is where the content is hosted.  It is hosted in the UK.  Some other countries and I know Netherland is going to speak up later on, it is high hosting rates.  We are seeing more people come online around the world.  We have seen a slight shift in the children we are seeing.  We have a reporting portal in India and we started to see children who look like they are from an Indian heritage.  Actually, we are seeing people are actually demanding children that they want to see.  So it's quite early to say, but anecdotally, we can give you some indication.

>> LAURA TURNER:  Okay.  Thank you.  I would like to turn it over to Aicha Jeridi.  She is working now with the African Civil Society and we would like to hear from Aicha about the situation on the A46 an continent and then later on, we will talk about what solutions we are looking and trying to solve the problem.  Thank you.

>> Aicha Jeridi:  I can add more than the others because I just gone to provide you with African context.

I owe my things to UNICEF.  147 million user the number of internet users only in west Africa.  Most of mom are children.  Children are the most active Internet users whether mobile phones or a computer.  Actually, 84% of them go online with either one of the devices off a previous set; however, children are unfortunately subject to a number of threats like fishing or cyber bullying.  Most common threat is the sexual abuse.

For instance, many growing number of Africans are suffering from sexual abuse or exposure to inappropriate content like porn.  Nambidia, we have children and seeing images of sexual abuse online that they do not wish to see.  One of the key issues has to do with peer to peer abuse and other things arising because of the growing access to kits to Internet which is counting 93% of Nambidian children have access to Internet.  Internet in Uganda is growing by 45% over the last decade, which allows more children to go online.  They have a recorded help line started or increased from ten calls a day to 750 calls of sexual abuse reporting.  In 2007, national center of missing and exploited children reported that 700% increase in the number of industry referrals of child sex abuse between 2013 and 2017.

The Internet work foundation, 55% of children report that 55% of children were accessed under the age of 10 and two of them were accessed 0 to 2 years old.

Moving to the South African context, over 19,000 pieces of sexual abuse were reported to police between 2015 and 2014.  A lot of threat in which African states suffer from is the gaming or suicide attempts any number of this.  It has to face in 2016, the gamer invented by Russians in which went viral and caused the death of 150 around the world including three or four cases in Indonesia.  The threats in Africa may go to the process of these threats and they may be caused mere bee by the ignorance or the lack of education of kids, lack of education of the parents of kids and also the lack of education or awareness among Civil Society organizations and the government about the risk and the danger of the kids going online without being controlled by their parents or local authorities.  So that's ‑‑ thank you.

>> LAURA TURNER:  Thank you for giving us a short glimpse on the situation in several African countries.

First I would like to turn to Paul.  Paul, do we have any that's online moderator, do we have any questions?

>> PAUL GHENT:  No questions so far.

>> LAURA TURNER:  No questions.  We have a question from the floor.  Larry, would you ‑‑

>> Larry:  Yes.  There are many articles written including some by myself saying there's a myth and there is no proof that game is anything other than Russian fake news.  I'm curious where you got your data from that 150 people.  That's about 149 more than I heard, maybe 150 more.

>> Aicha Jeridi:  So one of my kids was victim of blue rail.  So I can tell you this number and that's the truth.  We had to issue a court decision to ban this game from being uploaded in our country.

>> Larry:  There are scholars who have published articles saying that is a myth.  It may be a self‑fulfilling professy in that a myth was created and other people acted it out, but it has been documented to be gone as a Russian fake news story that may have morphed into reality in certain countries, but it's been controversial.  I'm just ‑‑ it's just an interesting issue that I'm not questioning the accuracy of what you're saying, but I am saying there's been a number of people who question whether it is in fact true.

>> LAURA TURNER:  At this point in time, we can let this stand as an example.  There are challenges that children are confronted with.  It might not be the blue whale.  But there are other challenges that children are trying and they learn from via the internet.  But we would like to focus today on child exploitation.  That's the topic of this session.  Now that we have heard that we have different situations in different countries around the world, although this is worldwide issue in all the countries, we protect global alliance and have developed the global national response and it's in the term itself that it's a global response that needs to be adjusted to the national situation to the chief really results.  Could you explain a little bit more about the global national response model?

>> Yes.  One ever the concrete outcome that came out of the initiative was the response.  It helps the member states to really understand what it is and how to implement it.  We have been supporting the country officers who work closely with the government to implement it at the national level.  And as I said, we are launching this brochure today which is the first we have really mapped out.  Some of the highlights, some of the activities that have happened at the country level to portray the responses that the countries are putting together.  I have my colleague from here.  One of the other output of the reprotect was the formation of a fund to end violence.  The purpose of which is to haven't initiatives whether member states or some pilot projects led by organizations of different countries to kick start in process.  One of the key challenge that we'll find for many member states is to really understand where to start from.  And, you know, even though the motivation is there, there is really lack of guidance as to where do we invest and where do we get this process started.  In that respect, the modern national response gives 21 different capabilities which target six different categories starting from, you know, the national leadership and emphasis on the need for having core clear understanding on policy makers.  The legal structure in place.  Having the right capacity and the tools and technology for the law enforcement to do the investigation.  Very clear guidelines on what should be done for the victims in terms of covering them and bringing them back to integrating them and providing care and services and having child protection work.  Susie was explaining that task is to have a hotline in place in all countries so that we can get these offenses and information about these offenses and then refer to the police.  Industry engagement in terms of removing the content, public awareness.  I will not go through all 21 because of lack of time.  We can all read through the brochure.  It tells you what the different capeabilities the government needs to have in place.  We protect to provide support the country has found out.  Automatically, they're entitled to seek support and guidance because we feel as a network and alliance, we need to share and distribute the information.  So not all member states are in the same situation in terms of knowledge and understanding and resources to tacket the issue.  As a global initiative, I think from what we have said earlier, we all understand that it's very difficult to fight this problem alone as a single isolated initiative.  So the beauty of this is to provide that collective wealth of knowledge that has been through a period of time and it's an ongoing process.  If that answers your question ‑‑

>> LAURA TURNER:  Yes.  Gives me the opportunity to Cisse Kane to have them deal with these cases.  Cisse, could you help us understand the situation on the African continent?

>> CISSE KANE:  It is my pleasure to be here with you as the African Civil Society.  It's a platform of 600 NGOs around the continent and the African (?).  We are following closely all the actions.  We include this issue and the issue of bad views and Internet and the information society in general.  And we command the actions you are taking and I think it's a common problem to the whole global humanity.  It's about our children.  It's about our future and it's important that we Orient them to the good and fair use of the Internet.  That was the spirit.  What we see now is all the threats we heard yesterday about the Paris declaration.  I think we protect global alliance goes in the same direction.  It protects ourselves, protects the humanity because if we protect our children, we protect humanity.

The issue in general is that it is not ‑‑ to be honest, it is not considered a priority.  First, the issue of access is still pending.  We have an average of 20% Internet access.  So we have a big potential of gross.  And also the priorities are in order issues.  You know, emerging content with challenges, walls and refugees and sometimes food and environment.  So that means that the focus of the government is not about child protection.  Although, it is a critical issue and we missed to organize it together especially in Mexico because it could not attempt.  I'm following very closely and we are happy to ‑‑ just to tell you that the issue of ICT in general is really handled in a big, big percentage by the Civil Society organizations because it is not always a priority.  Although it is very important and the issue of child protection is something (?) and education and also of the parents and my organization through our networks we are doing tremendous work.  So you can find throughout Civil Society organizations in Africa a wide range of human resources talking and speaking local languages because the issue ‑‑ if I go to the issue, we always refer to the texts.  We need inclusion.  We need local contents.  We need to imply the people to speak their languages to make them understanding what is going on.  Most of them don't even know about that if you go to the Internet, you are ‑‑ they call it sometimes you see this software talking to you, but behind it is a camera.  You know that social medias are just driving people, many people to the funny aspect and people aspect of the internet.  And this needs to be model risk in terms of sensitization and in terms of training and information.  You can rely on minor work.  We are Africans and we are speaking and very well educated people in general in the network and we are speaking local languages.  And you need to rely on this.  Why the system is not working in Africa is because many of the times people go to the governments.  And governments doesn't see it as a priority.  I command what you are doing and I think it's all the network is following it.  But the points I see as a potential solution and I commemorate and you what you have said about the network.  Thank you very much.

>> LAURA TURNER:  Thank you, Cisse, before I hand it over to our technical expert.  John has a response to what you said.

>> JOHN CARR:  I completely agree with what you said.  I wanted to say that some of our African countries are coming on board.  There are.  And if Nambia just launched a hotline with IWF.  What we are going to say is that yes, there are challenges of resource and technology of political ways.  But we have examples.  And countries like Namibia have established to guide the process.  So there are examples coming up.

>> LAURA TURNER:  You in for explaining that to us all ‑‑ thank you for explaining that to us all.

While we protect global alliance is strategy, policy strategy, we also have technical solutions or attempts to solve the problem with the help of technology.  I would like to invite Fredrik Hansen.  He's a security expert.  Also to my left.  To explain from your experience.  What can technology do in this regard?  Thank you.

>> FREDRIK HANSEN:  Thank you.  I'm on board with this private security guy from the private sector.  I did my journey into the rabbit hole by examining what I would call the darkweb to get a clear picture of this spread and since you may be aware that the open web where you are browsing, where Google indexes things, that's a total different arena where the darkweb is the hidden services on the network.

My conclusions from the research done so far, which is never going to end.  It's a cycle.  This thing can be researched for too many years sadly.  On the darkweb, there are sites with menus today.  I don't have to go into much details about the content of the menus, but it's scary.  It's pictures, different people.  Yep.  Yep.  So it's a scary thing to see actually.  And another fact is that these guys are actually today teaming up.  So they're collaborating and providing pictures, selling pictures, things like that which is ‑‑ yeah.  I was going to say it makes me lose hope on mankind, but still.  There are some good things coming up to that.

Going to the proactive part, awareness is always key.  And there are great initiatives among lots of different organizations.  And one of these are Google which have started something called interland, be Internet awesome which targets kids, teachers, parents and they have games which turns to kids to prepare them for Internet to help them be more experienced when it comes to fishing attacks which most grown ups today are falling for.  That would be to save the next generation.  So that's a key thing to be proactive in the long‑term actually.  On top of that, apart from teaching the next generation to be more safe online, I will just like to add the valuated of the portals being deployed today.  We can report pictures.  That work needs to be continued and expanded and also the developments using file hashes and tagging images that can be reported and handled and having Google, Facebook and Twitter, big organizations like that stepping up and supporting.  That's a key thing forward as well as scaling up using different things that will hunt down pictures and then, of course, emerges technologies like AI would be a beneficial thing as well.

On top of that, I'm seeing helping the national police forces with knowledge in all legal aspects as well.  But it's ‑‑ yeah.  Really, really important work.  Thank you.

>> LAURA TURNER:  Thank you, Frederick.  You have given us a slight insight into what technology can do.  I remember Facebook announced I think two weeks ago they had removed 8.7 billion pieces of content during three months only.  So only three months 8.7 million pieces of content and 99% of this content infringing community standards was discovered by Artificial Intelligence.  We know that many people report to hotlines like the internet foundation.  Susie, can you elaborate a little bit more on the one hand the reports you receive and also Fred reek has mentioned the darknet, the one area.  We know the images not only surface, they are there in the open‑free Internet.  Can you also elaborate on that as well?

>> SUSIE HARGREAVES:  Yes.  It terms of the content we see, we have received reports from the public and we search for content using our crawl list that we crawl the darkweb and the open web as well.  It's a myth that all this content is on the darkweb.  It's not true.  There is a lot of very, very dark content on the darkweb and as technology develops, it presents increasing challenges of how we might be able to tackle that.  But the majority is on the open web.  A lot of the content we see on the darkweb is hosted on image hosting webs on the darkweb.  If we can ‑‑ if we locate the images, we're then able to hash them and put a digital finger print and add them to a dash list.  We currently have 130,000 unique lists on the hash list.  We obviously are using Artificial Intelligence and working with technology companies to do that and try and tackle the volume because it's terrible.  I would also say that isn't any technology in the world that can currently, accurately age a child.  There is no technology that can do the job of human assessment.  So regardless of how much content we find that's potentially child sexual abuse, we require to analysts to humanly assess that content to insure that it is child sexual abuse content and we can get it taken down.  I'm not saying we got it sorted and it's incredibly challenging for us.  This is one of the things that Fredrik was talking about, but it is important you see it of where all this content is and most people that access child sexual abuse on the open web and people say to me, what are you doing?  It's all on the darkweb.  Really?  That's why we have 20 people sitting in an office every single day removing hundreds, millions of images off the open web.  It is on the darkweb.  It is challenging, but it is on the open web as well.

>> LAURA TURNER:  Thank you.  Before we go to our final speaker, I would just look into the floor whether we have any comments so far.  Yes, please.

>> AUDIENCE:  Good morning.  Do the figures that you notice ‑‑ sorry.  I live here in Paris.  The number of photo s and con tent that you find, does that match if there's any statistics from law enforcement in terms of numbers?

>> SUSIE HARGREAVES:  Nobody knows exactly how many images and obviously more images are coming online all the time.  An example of a challenge is in the states if you're a survivor or rescue victim, can you opt in to be notified?  If your images are found on someone's computer, one young woman, her messages had been shared over 70,000 times and she had 1500 notifications of people having that image.  The duplicates are huge issues and nobody knows exactly how many images there are.  There are two sets of statistics that people get mixed up.  One is the number of offenders and one is the number of images.  We know there are many people looking at child abuse images and there is no reason to suppose that people are any different or worse in the UK.  Those numbers may well be mirrored around the world.  We're dealing with a supply side, but we have to deal with a prevent side as well.  Use our technology so we're trying to develop data sharing agreements with hotlines so we're not duplicating the work.  It is quite frustrating, but actually, you know, we need to share all this intelligence so that we can build up a best picture and that's what we protectors are trying to do so we're not all saying different things to different people.  Sadly, the answer is no.  We can't give you exact correlation wean what we see and law enforcement sees.  Thank you.

>> LAURA TURNER:  Just for information sharing about Africa, someone's information that was mentioned ‑‑ sorry.  I am ‑‑ they're implementing a project that regional and sub‑regional level on online child sexual exploitation.  It is against our capabilities, 21 capabilities at country level, but it would be a regional report.  You are right when you say what we found working in partnering with them is a need to indicate policymakers.  They are complete in Paris and, um, most countries are facing very difficult circumstances and this topic is not (inaudible) on the policy.  But when they are, when it is a topic, they just don't really understand the dynamics of exploitation and abuse that is going on and the trends and technology trends, et cetera.  So there's a need to before going on the ground and to see things that will coinside policy makers and decision makers so at the time of taking decisions, they are informed decision makers and policy makers.  Thank you.

>> LAURA TURNER:  Thank you for setting that clear.  We have statistics from the association of hotlines from in hope around the world that collect the figures and probably someone from in hope might step in here and give us some more information.  Could you give ‑‑

>> LAURA TURNER:  The question was:  Is there a correlation between the databases of the police and what we see at the hotline?  Right?

>> Yes.  Number of reported or estimated cases of victims versus the number of what you gave a number on the form of an example.  But yes.  The number of cases of abuse or victims versus the uses of images.

>> LAURA TURNER:  So if I would draw a picture around that, there are several things you can say.  The far majority of the material which is on the open Internet is material what comes up popping up from the darkweb.  So that's most of the time already known victims for police forces, but it doesn't mean that our source cases.  So the hotline switches are connected to interpole.  A member of interpole put this material into a database which is then matched with the database of interpole.  And interpole does find new victims or goes to rescue victims and find perpetrators, a couple hundred a year actually.  So the hotlines are contributing to several cases of abuse in that way.  It's hard to say.  If you look at the Dutch database, they have 1.3 million hashes which is a completely different number.  But then the police database is a victim database.  It's not a child sexual abuse.  It means that there are child sexual abuse in there, pictures, but also pictures of victims in series in a part of a series.  It can be a legal picture.  So it's very hard to say if the two correlate to each other; however, like I think in the beginning, we need to cooperate all together and do our part to help police find the victims and perpetrators.

>> LAURA TURNER:  Thank you for giving that clarification.  I have two other voices from the floor and then we will go to Arda and then we have a final round of speeches and questions from the floor.  Introduce yourself, please.

>> AUDIENCE:  Thank you.  I was working for the federal police leading the child abuse team over there and I'm also driving the European impact CSE in 30 countries.  I would like to support what my esteemed colleague that assessments are very important.  For the moment, we are overflowed by information and support given by Artificial Intelligence worldwide.  An average of 20% of this information is illegal.  I have to involve police officers looking at legal material which takes a lot of time.  Second thing, darknet open as we see it the darknet is the start of the career of a picture.  Terrifying the lives of children and the third issue is peer to peer.  You can fight sides.  You can investigate the darknet, but peer to peer has an average of 29 million legal moves.  For me, one of the main efforts we must do is try to focus on quality information instead of quantity information because I can a sure you it is killing police officers all over the world fighting quantity instead of quality.

>> LAURA TURNER:  We have now question from remote participants.  We'll go to that first and then it's your turn.

>> It's a question from Susie from Washington D.C.  When you discovered signs in the open that are hosting this material, what steps do you take to have the websites taken down?  Who do you contact and how does that process work?

>> SUSIE HARGREAVES:  Thank you.  Thank you, Jim.  So with we find content on the open web, we go through a tracing procedure.  We use three traces ‑‑ we establish child abuse under law and then we place it on our hash list.  When we traced which country it is hosted in, if it is hoisted in an inhope country, we go via inhouse and Native eye and then they work with that country to get it removed.  If there is no hotline, we work via law enforcement and go through the UK and the national crime science and via interpole.  And also we have a direct agreement with many companies if they're members of ours where we're able to alert them simultaneously at the same time like in the states.  We then put that content on our URL list, which is currently about 7,000 URLs a day.  It is cleaned twice a day and not just deployed twice the world.  And we work every single day to get that content removed.  It is very dynamic about 400 URLs go on a day.  We have some content on our list for years that hasn't been removed and other content that will come down within seconds.  We can put the content in under two hours.  Thank you.

>> LAURA TURNER:  Thank you, Susie.

>> AUDIENCE:  My name is Simon Mason.  I work in the UK in an organization called child exploitation online protection.  I think when colleagues in the room are able to read the publication that's been launched today, few will doubt the impact of the we protect global alliance to end violence against children fund is beginning to make.  I say beginning to make because I speak as a Senior Manager with teams responsible for delivering some of this in developing countries in particular; however, we have learned and fully understand how long it takes to make a sustainable difference once you begin to invest time and effort in developing countries.  Most notably, for example, Kenya and Namibia.  What is the future we protect and evac and the global alliance in the sense of how long can it sustain its own capability to support the continued development so that the investment and time and effort being made this far does not with or on the vine.

>> It is a perfect question and I also would like to ask you for more patience till we go to the final round of audience questions, participants questions.  Sorry.  I would now like to turn over to the Netherlands who is also responsible for the Netherlands hotline and serving a senator on the Dutch parliament.  Those of you have listened to President McCore speaking yesterday and emphasizing very much on the need of legal solutions.  He was demanding for regulating the Internet in a way that I have not heard for many, many times before.  He phrased that as our common responsibility that we have to show in the next years.  Speaking explicitly about child pornography, terrorism, hate speech.  What is the Dutch precision regarding this and what would you like to announce to us today?

>> Thank you.  Yeah.  The thing is as a politician, I see many times child sexual abuse to enforce laws which I sometimes really doubt is being effective.  Nobody wants child sexual abuse on the Internet, right?  Maybe a few, but then again there's a lot of child sexual accuse around.  It was actually almost gone in the '80s.  Before the internet, we really learned to stop the flow of that.  It would be very hard to get.  Internet made it boom enormously.  I would like to talk to you what we see at the hotline because you hear the terrible stories of toddlers and babies and infants being abused and tortured.  This is material out there too, but you have to realize it's much more than that.  It is self‑generate content.  So many young people out there send out pictures or are expected to give more pictures.  It's a wide range of the material that you see and where it is coming from is all the very different.  It's very good to understand that.

Now the millions is number 2 in hosting.  So because it is not something I am really proud of or actually not proud of at all, but we're number 1 in Europe.  Hosting material ‑‑ the fact that we have a lot of hosting means it is found on servers based in the Netherlands.  So many people tell me and ask me, oh, so you are producing a lot of this material?  No, it's not that.  We have servers and it is based on servers which are placed in the Netherlands but could be owned by companies in or many times they are in another country.  It could be placed and it is most of the time placed on websites that is owned by companies in other countries.  Sometimes countries difficult to reach.  Sometimes countries which are easy to reach.

So why is this?  Why is this happening?  Why is it so good in this material?  It's not because of the production.  It's because we have a really good network, something I am proud of, a fast network.  We have the M6 which is the internet connection point which make its possible to quickly send out the data being images and videos to most of the time.  So yeah.  It's very popular for image hosters to host the websites because they're not only hosting that.  At the times, there are pictures of holidays or food or dogs or cats, of course.  The problem with the fight against season is that it is still seen as a police job.  The police need to find the perpetrators who upload this material and then stop them from doing that.  I can tell you our hotline reviews in 2017, 156,000 URLs.  That's only a URL.  A URL can be one image or thousands of images.  So many people putting it out there.  Very hard to find.  Actually, it's not the right way to go to stop the disease that spreads.  It's too much to handle for any police force and the police should focus on the perpetrators and the victims and find them and mot who is spreading it.  I think we need another stakeholder approach to tackle this.  I'm not agreeing with what McCain said yesterday.  I think that we and I'm saying we as the Technical Community here facilitated the problem.  I also think we can solve it.  One of the things are mentioned by Frederick, but I think we have to look at who is responsible for the content of the Internet.

Susie just told her the way that we have consensus and looks at the content and takes it down.  In the Netherlands, we have this voluntary notice and take down procedure.  We do it voluntarily.  If material is noticed on the internet of what you think should not be there, it can be child sexual abuse material.  It can be hate speech and discrimination.  It can be copyright infringement.  The website or the host of the website and ask them to take it down.  If it's not taken down, there are two ways to G. one is private law and then you would go to a judge and say it needs to be taken down.  There are many buddies who are just finding and putting pictures out there which you haven't had consent of placing them.  If it is child sexual abuse material, then you have to go to criminal law.  Here's the problem we have.  We have one bad host in the Netherlands.  Susie mentioned it that a lot of material is still online because the host says yeah.  I don't acknowledge the Dutch hotline because you're not a legal buddy.  You are not a judge.  You are people being paid to do this job.  I will take every material down when a courted order has been issued.  That would mean police would need to go to the court for every URL they have to ask them to take it down.  It has been done, but it's a lot of work and it's been taken down, of course, but it goes up again in a minute.  And it's very hard on the criminal law to prove that this piece is doing that intentionally.  They would say every time the police comes down, I take it down.  I obey the law.

Okay.  So ‑‑ we have finance authority on financial markets and gambling, on healthcare.  So it's like an authority who keeps track on the situation and they are very strong and can be fierce ‑‑ give fierce finds.  The good thing about that is you look beyond the criminal behavior.  You don't have to prove something is wrong.  You can look at the behavior of an organization.  We have researched this to maybe this buddy to have an authority of child sexual abuse material.  They measure where the notifications come from and where the material comes from.  So where it is hosted.  The structure around this hoster and maybe it is one website with several owners or one owner having several websites and how fast it has been taken down.  So there was a way to measure this one.  I will actually ask inhope to join this.  We can look at terms and continues from websites and hosters.  This all together will give us an image of is this a winning or unwinning host and if an authority thinks this is an unwilling hoster, then they can issue a fine.  It is all strengthening the case against criminal law.  There are authorities in the Netherlands that say something about what is going on, in court it will strengthen the position of the police.  It will make the whole strain stronger.

My conclusion is that in the fight against it, we need to have developing policies and I would really suggest that you would look into administrative laws because we need to strengthen the community.  We are here together as a community to fight the child sexual abuse material and we need to strengthen the position of the community and  administrative roles can be playing a role in that.  We don't need to shut down the Internet like I think Macron suggested.  We need the right tools to fight this problem.  And next to this, we really need sexual education.

>> LAURA TURNER:  Thanks a lot, Arda, for your statement and your position.

I would like to discuss this further how this authority on child sexual abuse or exploitation can work for other countries as well.  I donned it is mainly related to countries where lots of content of this type are hosted.  So it might not issue a model for all countries, but especially for countries with fixed server and companies providing servers and that could address this way.  So we have another 20 minutes more or less.  I have the next question from the floor.  I do hope it fits in there.  We have two other questions and then four other questions and then just the panel prepare please for a final round and how we can proceed and especially please try to focus on that.  We have three key messages from this session.  I have heard several things and I will try to summarize at the end.  But please try to focus.  I got one message for Arda already, but please also for the panels, please remind that we need to have key messages at the end and please know it is your floor.

>> AUDIENCE:  Thank you, chair.  Since 2000 ‑‑ my name is Charria.

Since 2008, we seek IGF.  We are in 2018, still we are into the discussion.  We're not able to do any concrete thing.  First of all in India, there is no child pornography.  We call it child sexual abuse because ‑‑ sexual abuse because it is illegal in India for any content related to the child sexual abuse.  Sexual abuse cannot be with a consent.  That's the reason that we treat this issue as a social abuse and the Internet abuse.  We are struggling for that even in our country in the supreme court when cases are going on for stopping of this child abuse, sexual abuse immediately.

Right now we are implementing the list, but my surprising me that I'm comparing this child sexual abuse with a drug abuse.  For the drug abuse, I understand any of you or any organization has monetized this for stopping this drug abuse similarly stopping this child abuse also and monetizing this for this purpose is in my opinion totally against the social cause.  If we are putting our effort for stopping of this child abuse, my organization is putting in the effort and they are meeting the expenditure and covering that up, it should be very minimal.  So that one ISP or TSP should be able to implement that.  One of the mediations by meeting authorities of the government try to impose this as an important thing to implement this and they are charging for a solution which is in my opinion it is absolutely wrong.  We are implementing the list.

Sometimes the people are not even able to (?) someone is take the picture for just putting the cause, but they are not taking the concepts of those kids and children.  In my opinion, that's also child sexual abuse because you're not taking the consent.  They are discussing this thing and my main issues monetization issues.  They should be used a social cause.

>> LAURA TURNER:  Thank you for reminding for being careful with our language.  This is only due to the case that in many legislation the term is still used and it is not replaced by child sexual abuse.  I think it was an initiative for three major organizations left by the console ever Europe that had developed a framework of language to be used in this area and also to avoid the term child pornography.  So thank you for this intervention and also per what you said.

So we have now I think it was you and then you.  ‑‑

>> Despite the fact we are very proactive.  Taking material very fast the same goes for mental cause for action for us to do something about it is frustrating in preventing the actual speed in which this can be done.  It also gets a lot of non‑cooperation from what we need to fight the problem.

I will give you examples.  Afterwards mentioned we need information to pinpoint where child sexual abuse is located.  That information is not being shared the topic to locate and pinpoint that.  The other one is that new legislation prevents us from sharing new information.  It is being put in place by the EU and to prevent us from sharing information which is IP addresses and URLs.  So when that goes through, it is normally possible for organizations to exchange and share data.  And governance are inclined to put that as a (?) ‑‑ so my question is:  How can we recall government to actions to realize if they're serious about fighting this that multi‑stakeholders need requesters to share data information and B, that governance need to realize they shouldn't put a legislation that has need efforts to cooperate.

>> LAURA TURNER:  Thank you very much for raising this point.  I was hoping that it comes up in this session.  It is nearly at the end, but probably what some of the panelists can address the issue in the final found.  I would like to take the three other questions from the floor and then it's up to the panelists if they want to answer the questions.  It's your turn.  But please be brief.

>> I am representing national research from moss cow, Russia.  There is a question on non‑judicial blocking on websites.  The question is general.  How to prevent distribution of materials for children.  Are there issues to keep safe in line without infringement of the human rights and blocking.  How to keep this balance between those two in general.  We have the answer to advice the governmental representatives in countries like Russia.  Thank you.

>> LAURA TURNER:  We are talking about websites that host illegal content.  Thank you.

>> AUDIENCE:  Hello.  I work at the council of Europe in Romania.  We recently had a talk at the office about something that was mentioned at the beginning of the session namely via live streaming and we talked about content that is being hosted on certain servers.  But what about this live streaming?  I asked the same question at the office and I'm curious about what can be done boo the live streaming?  Romania is the second ‑‑ always to say child sexual exploitation live streaming second after the Philippines, but in the case of Skype, this is how it is done in Romania.  Only the logs can be scored by Skype and only the logs can be accessed by the police.  What about the videos and the live streaming?  What is your advice on this?

>> LAURA TURNER:  You would like to answer the question?

>> JOHN CARR:  Just a quick response to that.  This is the issue we have in industry one week ago in Seattle and this was the very question I raised about the intention.  And currently, there is no common ground to be honest in terms of the data because of the massive amount of data it generates.  There are ‑‑ there are efforts where people are monitoring.  So basically taking snap shots of the streamers at regular interval when they're informed.  But not through the platform providers as of now.  Yeah.

>> LAURA TURNER:  You have something to add?

>> AUDIENCE:  Very quickly on these points.  This is a form of commercial sexual exploitation.  So what's happening is there are ways of collecting evidence of this form of crime through financial channels also because technically speaking, it is difficult to look at the traffic.

>> LAURA TURNER:  We now have five minutes left and I would like to ask all the panelists to summarize a little bit and focus please on the key messages that shall go out from this session.  Thank you.

>> SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.  I need to quickly say because I know the comment about monetization is about EWF charging for our services.  We know that members pay the Internet and the industry needs to pay to clean up its own network.  The fact is in India, we're talking about the five largest ISBs, which is are huge.  They can afford to keep the networks clean and they have not implemented a supreme court order to do so.  That was my one comment in relation to that.  But on wrapping up on this session, I wanted to serve it back to we protect.  Fighting sexual abuse is everybody's responsibility.  It is about law enforcement.  It's about police and industry and about the public.  It's about the Civil Society.  We all have to step up together and provide a framework and support mechanism for countries whoever they are, however small, however many people are accessing the Internet to be able to do that because it doesn't matter if we're great in one country at removing child sexual abuse unless every country steps up, we won't be able to solve the problem.  Thank you.

>> AUDIENCE:  I will start by acknowledging the rest of the intervention from the U.K.  In terms of the sustainable, at the end of the day, I will put it in different content.  It's a supply demand issue.  When we talk about the demand, it's not related to ‑‑ the Internet has helped in the distribution.  Maybe some form of abuse like online streaming, but at the very core, if you look at the social dimension, the sexual abuse of a child is that happens in the society within the family.  And to trace that, you need to have a wholistic plan by the government ownership in terms of addressing sexual violence against children.  It's not a special ad hoc touching problem.  It has to be dealt with from the roots.  It is empowering children and unless we have the wholistic model that one notion responds or dictates, it is a very ‑‑ it's a descriptive model that you have to have all of that.  So the countries do not have an excuse for not coming on board.  So the message here is to have ownership to see where you start and apply the model as you see fit and increment and regular increment, you build up your capacity.  My message would be to come on board and sign the statement and, you know, to show ‑‑ share some ownership on this issue.  I would just mention we have copies of this here.  So when you leave, feel free to grab one.

>> AUDIENCE:  Thank you, madame chair.  We are all moving towards the transformation.  We cannot go back.  So it's a reality.  We have to take it into account.  We also need really to take into account local context.  You are talking about sexuality.  Irv country has its own regarding addressing sexual issues.  That's why I repeat.  You need to talk with the people and you need to talk the language of the people.  Listen to them and know how ‑‑ the hotline and what is the rule.  For example, in Morocco, regarding the social context.  I see that only three countries from Africa are at 54 countries.  And also more increasing in terms of stakeholders.  You cannot deal with these things without Civil Society.  It's a point of view from someone who is working on the ground for 25 years.  I command your action and we are ready to accompany this wonderful process.  Thank you.

>> AUDIENCE:  We believe that multi‑stakeholders and policyholders should come together.  They must design campaigns where they are targeting parents, children and government officials and decision makers need to be aware of the threats of online and case being online.

The second one would be to design the appropriate let's say procedure or strategy for African kids or most relevant African context.  Thank you.

>> AUDIENCE:  I think that the panel has said everything it needs to be said.  So let's get to work.

>> LAURA TURNER:  Anybody from the European Commission or around here, please look into that.  It is blocking the use of stuff like that.  Something we definitely don't want.

Concerning to Africa, I would like to say that sexual and digital exploitation and we'll call upon that too.  Not only that, we really need to educate the men who view these images.  We don't talk about that.  We don't want to talk about that, but please realize that the far majority of those men are not just pedophiles.  It's not sexual feelings for children.  They are looking for extreme material to be aroused with different material than with what the porn industry is offering them.  And we might want to do that in their own language.  I really agree with that, but we have to look into that because stop viewing is ending the demand and ending the demand is ending the abuse.

>> LAURA TURNER:  Thank you so.  For your final statement reminding us that also we have to look on that side of the coin.

I would like to thank all of you for staying with us for the very valuable input you gave to the discussion.  I would also like to take the opportunity to invite you to stay in the room because in service minutes, we will start the session of the dynamic coalition on child online safety.  We will look at another aspect of children's safety being infringed on the Internet on technical aspects on services provided to children.  So please, if you are interested, stay here and thank you so much for being with us today.  Thank you.  Bye‑bye.