IGF 2018 - Day 2 - Salle IX - WS355 Empowering Change with Data:Measuring Youth Digital Mobility

The following are the outputs of the real-time captioning taken during the Thirteenth Annual Meeting of the Internet Governance Forum (IGF) in Paris, France, from 12 to 14 November 2018. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid to understanding the proceedings at the event, but should not be treated as an authoritative record. 



>> EDMON CHUNG:  Welcome.  But I guess people are probably still moving in between rooms, and I'm missing another person who is supposed to join the panel, but don't leave us.  We should be starting in a minute or so.

This is the session on really measuring how the Internet is impacting especially young people, but our broader scale as well.

Give me a couple of minutes.  I will try to see if I can grab the person from outside and get the session started.

All right.  With everyone here, let's get started.

Our support is right here.

So, welcome.  My name is Edmon Chung from DotAsia, and this is session about, as I mentioned earlier a little bit, this is -- we're starting with what DotAsia launched as a youth mobility index, but the intent of this particular session is hopefully we can get into a more interactive discussion.  We have some panelists here, and I won't go through introducing them, but I'll start with a little bit of an introduction of what we have been doing.  I'll start with ourselves, first.  DotAsia is, of course, run the top of the main for DotAsia, but we actually organize as, we run as a non-profit organization, and a very big -- I can't control the thing.  Okay.

So, big part of my -- our work is actually supporting Internet development around Asia.  And, in the last many years actually since we launched in 2007 and 2008, we've been supporting a series of projects for especially for youth engagement and development around Asia, and we started an initiative called NetMission DotAsia, you can check it out, that started to bring young people to this particular forum, the Internet Governance Forum.  And, we would like to think that we helped inspire a lot more programs that bring young people to the IGF, to ICANN, to other Internet Governance forums around the world.

Earlier this year we launched what we call the Youth Mobility Index, and what it does is it tries to build on some of the work that we have been doing in the last little while supporting young people, but also looking at what actually helps young people not only just get online, but actually leverage online resources and what we are calling digital mobility to -- sorry, missed one.  Using enhancing what we call digital mobility of young people and here's what we condensed the effort into a kind of, I guess, our vision, which is to support young Asians setting out to change the world.

We believe that the Internet has that potential.  We believe that, however, we also believe that beyond the Internet there are many things that effect mobility online.  There are many things that effect youth mobility not just online, but actually also off line, as well.  And, both of them together forms an important part of the -- what we are calling the youth mobility index.

So, last year we engaged with a number of academia, professors, including Chitat Chan, who is actually joining us from Hong Kong remotely today from the session, doctor Shanthi Robertson from western Sidney university.  Shanthi is in Melbourne, and I'm joining her tomorrow in a conference in Melbourne, so I'm flying over there tonight, talking about the youth mobility index, as well.  So, she won't be able to join us today.

And, some of you might know Malavika, who has been involved in a lot of Internet Governance discussion in Asia, as well.

So, with their help, actually a framework was put together as a measure, really, about what we call youth mobility or more importantly, a big part of it is what we call the Internet factor here in the methodology, but it's really trying to look at what we call digital mobility, and the way we think about digital mobility is how young people are able to not only just move around the Internet, but also to mobilize resources and mobilize people online.

So, the basic structure looks at some geographic mobility and you look at outbound and inbound mobility, and also a component of social mobility, what was usually conventionally called upwards mobility.  And, then, we also a big part of it as I mentioned is what we call the Internet factor, which is the digital mobility portion of it.

We look at three different areas, which are I guess most, you know, most important for young people.  One of the starting points of the study actually identified that employment or the worries of employment, especially as it is being challenged by AI and, you know, all those different future of work issues is the top concern of young people around Asia.  In fact, actually, around the world.

So, employment, from employment we expand a little bit the feeder to employment is education.  Of course, that is a big question for young people.  And, an alternative really to employment is entrepreneurship.  So, these are the three kind of sectors that we look at as core sectors that form the YMI framework.

So, a little bit of highlights.  It actually uses the methodology itself uses what is called I guess secondary data.  We use public data sets that are collected from -- collected by various Governments and agencies.  So, we are drawing on UNESCO, World Bank, and other UNICEF data sets, but it's actually combining about 216 different social and economic indicators, as well as technical indicators, what we have thrown in more interestingly is, like, not just the access number of users online, but actually, for example, IPB4 addresses used, participation here, at the IGF, participation at ICANN, and those types of statistics into the aggregate data.

Another important part that we've incorporated is that it's youth driven, and important concept of it is that besides, for example, besides quality of living, the traditional quality of living for a lot of areas is focused on the housing, the health, the traffic and those kind of things, but for young people, there could be other considerations, and the weight of example for medical care might be lower than ability to travel other places, and that is being adjusted in terms of how we use part of the indicators to come up with the final scores.

So, ultimately this is what we launched this year, and it's a ranking system, actually, ultimately over the different indicators that come up to a final score, and is ranked, and the first year, this year we have ranked 20 localities around Asia, and here is one of the examples.  I won't go into the really details, but what gets generated is a number from the indicators, a number of specific data about the outbound, for example, number of students that are going outbound shall number of students coming in, and you know the people -- students that utilizing MOOCS, what is called the mass open online courses.  MOOCS.  And, some other aspects.  So, that is for education.  For employment, we look at the outbound migrant, inbound migrant, and the youth component of those migrant workers and how that impacts the whole index.

Of course, the wages and stuff, and then as mentioned, the IPV4, IPV6 usage, the domain name usage, they're all part of the kind of methodology.  I won't go into details.  If you are interested, I'm happy to take questions, but I guess what is interesting for us, at least for the first year, is to see that the methodology seems to be holding up a reasonably okay.  It correlates quite well with the traditional way to think about how an economy or jurisdiction is doing.  It correlates well with GDP per capita.  It correlates well with the competitiveness rating, and stuff.  However, what is more interesting is the anomalies, right, the ones that slightly different from the other economic indicators.  Here you see that, whereas, like Japan and Korea actually shows a lower in terms of GDP per capita.  It has a much higher kind of digital mobility for young people in those regions, and that's something that is rather interesting.  So, whether how that actually translates into the future, competitiveness of those areas versus simply looking at the GDP and the GDP development would be an interesting area to look at.

So, here is a, I guess, a quick note on the final score.  I hope it's interesting, but that may not be the most important part of a study, although one -- it's quite, I guess -- it's not too much people surprise.  I mean Singapore and Hong Kong is way up there, and then followed by Japan and Korea, and follow on it's more or less the top guys are kind of the -- for economically better ones of, but then in the middle it becomes more interesting.  You look at Taiwan, Malaysia, and then you see Bhutan there, which is really kind of interesting to see.  I won't go into details.  It is actually, I think we have a bunch of the reports here, or you can go into why AI DotAsia to check it out, but what I want to draw attention to is the other graph on the bottom right.  And, here is a look at how migrant, incoming migrant force is helping the economy in some sense and compare specifically on youth.

Here you see, for example, you look at Hong Kong and Singapore, you see a big circle around it.  The slightly trans Lucent circle.  That's the total number of in-bound migrant.  And, inside the more solid color circle, that represents the youth percentage, part of youth incoming my grant workers.  So, you see that while Hong Kong and Singapore has a huge total migrant force coming in, the youth component is very small.  But, when you look at Japan, that's really interesting.  Japan has a relatively small incoming workforce, but a big chunk of it is youth.  Well, clearly that is, I guess that is part of the strategic approach for the Country, as well, attracting young people with their aging kind of population.  So, these are some of the things that we find rather interesting.

So, again, I won't go into details.  I want to go to a more of a discussion shortly, but here is some of the data that we have kind of created into graphs.  What is interesting to see is that on the Pentagon kind of vector diagram you see that this is the one from Japan.  While they are quite high, what you see is that that is the outbound/inbound start up sustainability Internet factor.  You see that Japan will have a pretty big score overall, the outbound propensity, if you will, is actually relatively low.  So, Japanese young people don't want to go out.  And, whether that will affect future competitiveness maybe another issue.  So, these are some of the things that we hope to look at and perhaps inform policies.

Here is Taiwan is a little bit similar, right.  So, they have a very nice environment there in Taiwan and young people really don't want to go out.  And, is that going to affect part of the future in terms of tolerance and social tolerance and social kind of diversity is something to be seen.

Another one that I wanted to highlight is Vietnam.  Vietnam is rather interesting.  Part of the study this year shows that it has a very high startup momentum and it's actually young people want to start businesses in Vietnam; however, the general mobility is relatively low.  So, part of the conclusion there is that maybe the regulatory framework for allowing young people to move about needs to be opened up further.  That allows young people to thrive in the future.  That is one of the things.

Another interesting thing that we identified is, and again, focusing on how traditional indicators are focus for youth is the happiness index versus cost of living.  Traditionally you look at the happiness index and that is a well-established index, actually, but in our index we incorporated those scores, but we divided it by cost of living.  What that does is kind of interesting.

Singapore and Hong Kong, for example, is usually very high on happiness index overall in Asia; however, when you divide it by the cost of living, well, that cost of happiness becomes a cost to actually fall to the bottom of the scale.  So, they're actually ranked 18th and 20 teeth at the bottom of the scale.  What that -- how that impacts young people is because, well, younger people usually they haven't built up their assets, they haven't -- they don't have as much money.  So, their happiness is actually lower than other places, because you know, those are areas where as while they have a good mobility and good opportunity and generally can enjoy the kind of life, but as young people, it's much more difficult, because the cost of living is high.  So, this is how we have interpreted some of the indicators differently.

I'll skip to some of the planned improvements.  So, an important part of the initiative is we are hoping to improve over time, and this session and other sessions that we're trying to organize is also to look at how other indicators have been being developed, how they are being used, how data is actually can be used to advocate policies.  I mentioned the interesting observations in Japan, in Taiwan, in Vietnam, but how do we turn this into action is something that we are hoping to see, and some of the feedback has already pointed out a few directions, and some of the plan improvements include gender.  In this first version, gender equity wasn't included as a big part of the calculation, so the coming year we're looking at incorporating that more thoroughly.  We're also -- there is a parallel initiative, I would say, that UNESCO started.  Unfortunately, they have an exact -- the same time right now that they're having their session here originally, we were going to have them come join us, and we were going to join them, but neither could happen, because it's happening at the same time.  But, the Internet universality indicators and the ROAM principle, rights, openness, accessibility, and multistakeholder approach framework.  So, what we're looking at is as we were developing framework, UNESCO was creating the ROAM framework and the IUI work.  In the coming year, as they finalize the framework for IUI, actually we will be adopting that into what we call a big part of the Internet factor, the digital mobility component of it will be sync'd up, if you will, with the UNESCO framework, at which we have been participating and contributing to, as well.  So, this is one big area.

Another one, which I think I'll pass to Chitat in a moment to work on, to talk about, is ex panned go from the youth mobility index.  Some additional hopefully to inspire additional studies on how some of these indices actually in case studies more qualitative studies, as well as quantitative studies on how it's actually impacting young lives, and so -- then the.  I zoomed in instead.

One another one, which Sherry here will cover a little bit more, is we're also looking at incorporating some open data index and Sherry from ISOC Hong Kong will talk a little bit more about how that could be incorporated and how we should think about it in terms of supporting youth development, as well.

And, there is also -- this year we've incorporated part of the freedom on the net statistics.  We're also reaching out to freedom house and trying to work with them on improving that part of it to incorporate other aspects.

So, ultimately what we hope to really talk about is to, in essence, change part of the narrative.  We talk about Internet access a lot of times in terms of only providing access, or you know, but how do we think about it really supporting young people and in a sustainable way and supporting the economy in a sustainable way.  We're trying to change that narrative into what we call digital mobility.  Including here at IGF and other forums, we often talk about simply the ability to get access to the connectivity, but all -- and also like a free open Internet, those kinds of narrative.  What we are thinking about in terms of youth mobility index and what we call digital mobility is hopefully change that narrative towards what we call digital mobility, which incorporates all those, but talks about how it actually supports development and how it actually supports young people around the world.

So, that's really the introduction of what we've been doing.  And, at this point, I will -- since Chitat is on remote, I'll pass to Chitat first to add, and at any point in time, please, we're hoping this would be somewhat interactive, so at any point in time if you want to ask any clarification questions, please just raise your hand a little bit, and I will indicate that you want to speak and put you in the queue.

Chitat, are you able to join us? 

>> Chitat Chen:  Can you hear me? 

>> EDMON CHUNG: Yes, loud and clear. 

>> Chitat Chen:  First of all, thanks for giving me this opportunity to participate in this youth mobility project. 

I think it is a very important and very interesting project that's going to contribute to our understanding regarding the situation of the young people in different places.

Let me expand a little bit more about the youth mind-set in Asia that you mentioned in your presentation.

I think this YMI initiative can associate with many other initiatives and can inspire many other initiatives.  The talk about the youth mind-set in Asia is that, you know, my background is sort of science researcher.  I'm interested in social phenomenon and I think if we're really want to mobilize Governments, you have some constant change or some real initiative that they will put more resources in those real initiatives.

I think we need to show them the real impact on people.  You know, we have different numbers.  We have -- something wrong?  Disconnected? 

>> EDMON CHUNG: No.  We can still hear you.  Probably try without video from your side.  That cuts down on the requirement for bandwidth. 

>> Chitat Chen:  Sorry about the technical problem.  I think something wrong, right? 

>> EDMON CHUNG: I think it is good at this point.  We can hear you loud and clear again. 

>> Chitat Chen:  Sorry about that.  Something wrong with my screen.  Actually, from my computer I can see you.  But you can hear me, right? 

>> EDMON CHUNG: Yes, we can hear you. 

>> Chitat Chen:  What I want to say is we need to show Governments and policy makers the real impact on people.  So, I think the survey, the youth mind-set in Asia is important in a way that we are trying to use a reporting questionnaire to measure some psychological constructs, including close minded necessary, curiosity, self-esteem, ethnocentric tendency.  These are the -- I mean, these are the psychosocial metrics that we want to measure.  And, if we can have the results of this psychosocial outcomes of different places, from different cultures, and at the same time if we can have the YMI index in some other area, we can further develop further investigate the core relations between these psychosocial outcomes and those quantified at social cultural conditions.

So, this way we can have more evidence to show Governments and those policy makers in different places the ways in which these -- I mean this social culture conditions and logical conditions in the way that we can show them in what ways these conditions are related or not related to those psychosocial outcomes of young people in different places.

So, I do think that why MI index have established something very important, some important quantified foundation, quantified metrics for us to compare and correlate them with those psychosocial outcomes.  So, I do think that this is something that is very important initiative that can help social science research.

>> EDMON CHUNG:   Thank you, Chitat.  I was just informed by -- sorry.  Not very – Witagi (Sp).  Sorry didn't pronounce your name correctly.  You just mentioned that you need to leave soon because of some emergency, why don't I pass it to you, and perhaps you can introduce a little bit about digital grass roots and your views on how data is supporting this kind of work, as well. 

>> Okay.  Thank you very much.  My name is Watagi Dumo (Sp), Vice-President of Digital Grass Roots.  Youth initiative that tries to get more youth online in building the policy arena.  We are currently in 36 countries, and we all met last year at the IGF in Switzerland.  We are a hundred percent youth led.  105 years old, and we work with youth in the local communities.

We have a booth.  You can come visit our booth and see how we are actually using data right now at the booth to tell people about our work.

So, I learned how to -- I have been working with a lot of data for a long time, but I never really knew how to really use it in my advocacy work, so I decided to attend a training, that organization that is based in Uganda called policies, so that is how I learned how to use data driven advocacy.

We use data in all our work, all our work, even before I joined the tech world, I was working for amnesty international and we were using a lot of data to do our work.  Data driven advocacy is important because you can tell stories using your data.  A nice visualization of data can get people more interested in the work you do.

So, I recent campaigned that we currently are still returning at the IGF, you can sign it.  We are collecting signatures on a youth petition to get more youth at the table in Internet Governance discussions.

So, another way that we have used our data is in Kenya.  In Kenya we're currently trying to pass our data protection Bill, and we needed to be heard by the legislate terse.  So, we went to the local communities and asked them questions, would you vote for this.  Pass on, if they passed this kind of law.

Do you understand this kind of law?  So, we collected all this information, and put it -- and you know put it, of course, in a nice Excel sheet and then visualized the data, and you know we took that information to the legislators and we were like you see what these people on the ground are saying.  And, we could tell that they were, you know, moved by the data, because they invited us again to -- they were like, if these are the numbers, it's unacceptable, so we want to have a sitting with you and you can tell us what is wrong with this Bill, how do we improve it, can we work with you so you can tell us more about how to improve on this and work with us on this.

So, we have also launched our digital rights in Africa report.  It's on our booth.  You can come and have a look at it and see how we have -- we are using our data to inform people about digital rights in the various regions and for us and the report is Africa.  So, data driven advocacy is important.  Of course, if you have used well and you take care of all aspects, you know of privacy and security.

Currently at digital grass roots, we have been running various training, so we had an English cohort and a French cohort.  So, of course we have to write, you know, outcome reports, and we created outcome unit I can where we have used data to explain to even, you know, a five year old or a 10-year-old that are using simple data, this is what happens when you get online, and how you should behave when you get online.  So, if you like to also have a look at our Munich, you can come see it at our booth.  So, you can see how we are using data to change the policy arena.

Thank you.

Sorry.  I must apologize to you.  I have to go and moderate a session.  My colleague lost her documents.  Thank you.

>> EDMON CHUNG:   Before you go, can I maybe ask you just one question.  You mentioned that this seems like the campaign based specific data collection is very useful for kind of advocacy or even activism.

What about these more, you know, annual indices and these kinds of data?  How can we, I guess, improve to support work that is done kind of on the ground is something that is interesting. 

>> Thank you.  That is a good question.  So, what we can do is definitely give people the knowledge.  People have Corp pee ous amounts of data and don't know what to do with it.  I am a victim of that.  We just collect data, you know, without a goal.  You need to know, why are you collecting this data.

So, we are always collecting data.  You attend a conference such as this and you ask people some questions and you record it and you write a report and send it to your boss, but then you don't do anything with it.  So, we need to have, you know, trainings and creating awareness and teach people what do you do with the data you are collecting, why are you collecting the data, and I believe trainings are to teach people how to work with data and what to do with data would be very useful, you know, to help them learn what is -- how to achieve the best advocacy results when using data.

>> EDMON CHUNG:   Thank you.  And, I won't keep you here.  I know that you need to run to another session, but like, I just want to see if there is any question from the floor that would like to address.  If not, I will let you go. 

>> Thank you. 

>> EDMON CHUNG:   No.  Thank you for dropping by, and sorry.

But I guess coming back to the discussion, what we really want to talk about is how this relates to advocacy work, but how it impacts young people, I guess.  So, next I guess next up we are trying to get a couple of, I'll go to faith and Angel first and perhaps talk a little bit about, you know, your thoughts on some of the work that was presented in terms of the youth mobility, how you -- how much you view mobility as an important factor, and perhaps, you know, your views on whether this type of data is useful at all, or is just too much, too dense to digest.

Faith or Angel, who wants to --

>> Hello, my name is Angel, and I'm one of the representatives of the HKYGF and I'm current Lou e a year one student in university.

So, maybe I'll discuss the youth mobility in terms of education.

In places with a higher youth mobility, young people have more opportunities to have access to and more internationalized education.  For example, there are programs which a university cooperate with other universities.  For example, in the University of Hong Kong, there is the duel program which students can attend one year of education in London law school, and then have their remaining years at the University of Hong Kong.

And, then, there is also where the Internet can help in raising the mobility in education.  For example, in the University of science and technology, there is the global business course where students will have video classes with a university in U.S.  So, because education is an important tool that institute different knowledge, value and mind sets that shape what we will become in the future, it is important for us to know more about how education is like and the culture and background are like in other countries.

And, it is especially important in the current society, because with the advancements of technology, there is rapid globalization and different parts of the world are becoming more closely connected together.  So, it is important when youths know more about what is going on in other parts of the world instead of just focusing on their small circle of society.

And, then, with the help of the Internet, more people will have the opportunity to get access to an internationalized education, because they don't have to travel to another place to have access to the education of another Country.  So, this can also eliminate disparity in a way that there are some anti-globalization movements because some poor countries and poor people actually are being deprived of their opportunities because the richer people can have more access to different resources because they have more capital.  So, with the help of Internet, more people will be able to get access to different parts of the world and connect with more people in the world, and in the future, they may have a higher awareness of the global citizenship and be able to even mitigate the disparity problem.

So, this is why I think the youth mobility is very important, because as the cliché goes, youths are the future of the society, and many deed we are, and we also hope to have more -- a higher mobility so that we can connect with more people and know more about different parts of the world and help people in different parts of the world.

>> EDMON CHUNG:   Thank you, Angel.  What you brought out is kind of interesting.  One item that you mentioned in terms of through education, through the Internet you can connect around the world and know about things. 

Chitat, hopefully you're still on be able to connect, but one of the things has we also see is that the interest net has a different effect, as well, or reverse or opposite kind of effect.  It creates echo chambers.  You think you know more, but actually you're knowing less.  So, how do you see about that problem of the Internet and perhaps Chitat, if you can add to that, as well.

Angel first. 

>> Angel Ng:  Indeed, in the Internet there is some things like fake news and stuff, and it is indeed difficult to distinguish which information is real and which is fake.

So, largely depends on our awareness, the awareness of the interest net users, and as well as the help of different organizations and maintaining a healthy positive Internet environment so that Internet users can be able to get access to the real and updated information.

>> EDMON CHUNG:   Chitat, are you able to join? 

>> Chitat Chan:  Yeah, I can hear.  I cannot see anything (Laughter).  But, okay.  I hear you clearly talk about the Internet and talk about some phenomenon like echo chamber, right.

>> EDMON CHUNG:   I guess how it relates to some of the work that we're doing together in terms of open-mindedness among young people. 

>> Chitat Chan:  Yet.  Yes.  That is why I think we need more data, more experts to talk about, refer and investigate into this phenomenon, because they're not just one single factor determining the so-called open-mindedness or closed minded necessary of critical thinking or curiosity.

The more data we can have, the more possible that we can identify those most relevant factors related to those psychosocial outcomes of young people in different regions.

The echo chamber effect that you mentioned, there is also some others who decide to affect this related to the open-mindedness of the people in the particular region.  Like what you mentioned in band mobility, out band mobility.  So, the Internet circulation, Internet access is just one of the items.  Information, information sources on the Internet is just one of the aspects.

There are also other societal aspects that covered by why MI like how easy that people in the place can go outside and how easy people in the place can have opportunities to get in touch with people from different cultures in their workforce.  So, I do think that the YMI index, if you see this as just a number, it can be used as just one single number, but the thing is it would be even more useful if we look at those subcategories, subsets, those different factors included by the YMI initiative, because the more factors that we know, the more variables that we can have, the more that we can understand the phenomenon.

>> EDMON CHUNG:   Thank you, Chitat.

Anybody in the room wants to ask question or comment, please just indicate and put up your hand.  If not, I will go over to Faith.  Your thoughts. 

>> Faith Lee:  Hello.  Okay.  Hi everyone.  So, I'm Faith Lee.  Currently a year 12 student at Chinese international school in Hong Kong, and I am a representative from the Hong Kong youth Internet Governance board.

So, I'm just going to add on to the points on the slide.  So, first of all I'll talk about how data can support advocacy and campaigns for change.

So, first of all, like what Agy said you can tell stories through the use of data, but other than that I think the importance of data is we're able to deduce patterns in terms of how we as humans behave, right.

So, for example, my own experience in using data would be a student led campaign.  So, I run a student led campaign called Justice Leaders Council where we advocate for refugee rights in the Hong Kong Secretary school community.  During our annual conference my partner and I gave a presentation about the refugee situation in Hong Kong, which a lot of people aren't actually familiar with, because in fact Hong Kong has one of the smallest refugee populations, it only has about 10,000 refuges, but then I think the use of data can uncover the truth behind that, because after some extensive research that I did, I found out that 6% of asylum seekers in Hong Kong were accepted as refuges.  So, in comparison to the acceptance rate of refuges in European countries, which is -- which can be as high as 75%.  0.6% is an astonishingly low number.  So, with that kind of data, it really provides a kind of knowledge and more background and more context for people to understand why we're advocating for this change.

So, in terms of YMI, so the use of YMI data allows us to be aware of the competitive advantages in the three areas, education, employment, and entrepreneurship.

So, why do I think youth mobility is important and what is the relevance as we move towards an increasingly digital economy?

So, I think one thing that distinguishes youth from other kinds of -- any other kind of individuals is that youth generally, they aren't afraid and they are, in fact, willing to accept -- they're in fact enthusiastic about change in their lives.  So, for example, a lot of youth nowadays they're willing to go abroad to study, they're willing to go abroad to work, and I think nowadays it would be fair to say that youth is being brought up in increasingly international and global backgrounds.  For example, there are more people sitting in international schools, there are more people participating in overseas competitions and such.  And, I think that nowadays people and youth in particular, they're more invested in obtaining life experience rather than tangible goods.  So, in the past a lot of people would be very fixated on trying to obtain things like housing and cars and other kinds of tangible goods whereas nowadays we're more focused on traveling or education abroad.  Like, that kind of life experience.  So, I think youth mobility and having the youth mobility index in place would allow youngsters to venture into new opportunities and also give them the ability to be able to adapt to different environments and immerse themselves in cultural experiences, to pursue their passions and broaden their horizons.

So, I think when -- in terms of measuring the youth mobility index, I think a couple of things, the most important things that should be taken into consideration would be the backgrounds, like cultures and upbringings of the individuals that are being investigated, and that includes their education.  So, the education system differs depending on the Country and also depending school by school, and so -- and, so in Hong Kong there is actually two streams of schools.  So, there is local schools and international schools, and I think that, like, the education in which they grew up with can significantly influence the way they think and the way they behave in the future, as well.  So, I think that would be a very important determining factor for youth mobility. 

Finally, I would like to shed some light upon how we can encourage Governments and other stakeholders to participate in and to improve these indices.  And, how do we encourage Governments use YMI as a positive change for positive change, and as a measurement for success.  And, it shouldn't be just a superficial level of success that Governments use on their promotion materials, rather it should advocate for policy change and, yeah.

Currently after attending a workshop today called creating -- it's something along the lines of the future of jobs for generation Y and Z, I found out that the biggest issue is that people don't trust in young people's capacities, so what I mean by that is that young people, they aren't provided with, for example, a lot of job opportunities, because they're being underestimated due to their in experience, however, I don't think that youth should be underestimated, because they hold an extremely powerful voice and one of the key characteristics I think youth possess is that they are often passionate and they're often determined, and once a group of like-minded youth come together, they can bring a very significant change.

And, like I mentioned previously, youth, they generally aren't afraid, and they're in fact very enthusiastic about change, and they're also very enthusiastic about bringing change into society.

For example, in the umbrella revolution in Hong Kong, it was a actually a lot of it was youth driven and so I think youth surprisingly have a very large amount of power that we should not be undermining.

So, to conclude, like Angel said, youth, we're an essential part of future society.  So, with something like YMI in place, I believe that it will be extremely crucial in the process of advocating for policy change.

>> EDMON CHUNG:   Thank you.  You mentioned about your work, actually, very interesting in advocating for refugee rights in Hong Kong.

So, you identified that data and you kind of published it or told the world about it.  Has that changed anything, and what's happening through that?  0.6% versus 75% is a huge gap. 

>> Faith Lee:  Yeah, it is very astonishing disparity.

Obviously because we just started back in August and our annual conference was held in November, and because we're still in that organization and we just start edit, obviously no policy changes have been made, but I think advocacy, even though we're only taking baby steps, without advocacy then the whole process wouldn't even be there.  So, we need advocacy as a head start.  So, actually, about a hundred and something people attended our annual conference, and although that might not seem like a large amount, with more and more students being aware of these statistics, at least I think them being aware of the problem is important in order for us to bring change.  Yeah.

>> EDMON CHUNG:   Thank you.  And, just to try to involve the audience, if there is any questions or comments so far.  If not, this is a good kind of segue into what Sherry will share further, building on the discussion about I wonder, Faith, how you got the data for 0.6%.  I guess it is some open government data, or not. 

>> Faith:  Actually, it wasn't government (Audio cut out).

Okay.  Hello.  So, we -- my organization, we actually worked with an NGO called Justice Center Hong Kong.  So, they're an N GO that provide pro bono legal assist test to refuges and asylum seekers, and they also have a team of researchers that publishing this kind of materials.  So, we do get this kind of knowledge from them, and but then obviously not a lot of -- because justice center they're still quite small, so not a lot of people know about them.  So, we kind of advocate for justice center's work.  So, by advocating for their work and because their work also aligns with our beliefs as well.  So, by advocating that way and a by providing that kind of information to a wider audience and namely secondary school students in Hong Kong, I think that would be a good start for empowering change.  Yeah.

>> EDMON CHUNG:   Thank you.  There is a question.  That's great. 

>> Audience:  Yeah, I do.  My name is Lian (Sp) and I'm from Toronto in Canada.  Working on a project with my university there, at York University, and it is a digital mobility projects and I'm wondering in terms of the quality, I mean, so obviously there is the traditional mound setting on exchange and send students abroad but of course it is a completely new phenomenon.  In terms of the quality of the experiences that are being realized, I'm wondering in terms of the data, does it take that into account?  Is it simply going on to -- meeting people online?  Is there a measure to the quality of that experience?  And, then, the second kind of point is there a way, do you have a model that can guide kind of a quality experience in terms of digital mobility.

>> EDMON CHUNG:   That's a great question; actually.  This is something that unfortunately professor Shanti couldn't join us today.  One of the things that we hoped to inspire are follow-up studies, case studies, because sometimes if you look at the quality situation, it's more of a case study than completely kind of a quantifiable or kind of a -- turns into a number.

We do have -- we did consider that a little bit, and we agreed to keep this -- take this off line and definitely follow up with you.

In terms of what we call life experience, sub index within the YMI, and we look at how the quality of life in the young people's mind, and it takes into consideration, like, not just health, but how much e sports is there, you know, how much bars are there, you know, some of the, I think the -- how should I say?  I think it's the rich thing with the creative class components.  How much is that there to attract young people.  So, we do include a bit of it, but I think specifically on what you mentioned, it's much more for we hope to inspire case studies, and then you can look back at, you know, look back at whether if those areas change, does it move the YMI index.  We hope that if the quality increases it actually does move.  If it doesn't, then we need to change our methodologies.  That hopefully answers.

Now I'll move to Sherry, who we were talking a little bit about the data that was from refuges, and it's supposed to come from government, I guess, but it wasn't.  And, that tells us a little bit about open data that comes from government. 

>> Sherry Shek:  The time is running out, so how many minutes do we have? 

>> EDMON CHUNG: We started a bit late, but runs for about three to five minutes more if that's okay. 

>> Sherry Shek:  Okay.  I'm Sherry.  So, I'm a fellow of IGF, and also working with ISOC Hong Kong.  So, we have a project of Hong Kong open data index, because currently there is no global index that covers Hong Kong, and so we aim to evaluate the openness of government data.

So, touching on the refugee data that Faith mentioned that it wasn't from the government, yes, because like the government, Hong Kong government is very I'd say assert in opening up the data, according to like our conversations with the different stakeholders that we approach during the projects, I can share with you one example from a conversation with the LAN research community regarding a discussion of LAN data opened up by the government.

So, it was very interesting that the research community pointed out that it's actually very hard to have access to the government data, because they don't really want the public to spot the policy problem, and so there is one example that the development bureau of Hong Kong released a report, they did a survey regarding the temporary land of temporary leasing in Hong Kong trying to calculate the amount of land of temporary releasing in Hong Kong, but they published the report in a PDF format.  So, imagine, like, this data which enforce a lot of maps and including a lot of maps and also this data of the lands, they published that one in the PDF format, which really created a lot of obstacles for the researchers.  So, currently there is this policy driven by the government to build artificial land in Hong Kong out of nowhere that was like in the middle of the sea, build artificial land.  So, this research community, by trying to draw the data, they couldn't have the access from the government, so they have to buy the maps from the government and they try to scrape from the geo map website from the government, and try to organize and coordinate the data from different sources, and they create and find out that they are actually a lot of vacant lands that can be used.  So, instead of having this artificial land being viewed to solve the housing problem in Hong Kong, we are actually a lot of hands that is isn't used properly, so this sheds light on the importance of having open data.

Should I conclude here?

So, I think drawing the length between mobility and data, I'd say that I would translate mobility into there are -- I would see mobility as geo graphical mobility as well as social mobility.  So, I would translate social mobility into an autonomy of choosing and planning your lifestyle and your rural and society.  So, it's very important from the cases of this land data in Hong Kong, you can see it's really important to have data access to data by the public so you can make changes and impacts to the government and drive the policy through its favorable to -- to a favorable future that you prefer in order to enhance your lifestyle.  And, this is how I see data and mobility.

>> EDMON CHUNG:   Thank you, Sherry.  We see a question. 

>> Audience:  (Inaudible) is it working?  It is working.  I didn't see the light.

So, one of the researchers found out that this artificial land project wasn't needed.  The dialogue was the government continue.  Was it because the government didn't realize that the landing -- the housing problem could be solved in another way, or they knew it and still wanted to go forward.  And, what -- how did this effect the general approach of opening up government data? 

>> Sherry Shek:  The government has very strong motivation in pushing that artificial land policy, despite that there have been a lot of voices and also a lot of campaigns that are going on, because of having this piece of information followed by that research community, and I can't really comment if it's that the government realize that this piece of information and they still deny this, or they considered that insufficient, but I will say that so, this is -- this piece of information followed by the research community really provides fuller picture of resources in Hong Kong, so it is for the public to judge whether this policy is appropriate are not.

>> EDMON CHUNG:   So, being from Hong Kong and being completely biased I would say the latter.  (Laughter).

With that. 

>> Can you repeat your second question, please. 

>> Audience:  How did this discovery effect the general overall approach of the government to opening up more data? 

>> Sherry Shek:  So, right now we are doing this open data index Hong Kong project.  It is in a very beginning phase.  We are doing this visibility study in trying to build methodology framework, and we hope eventually we can build an index and that index can push the government by showing that in what categories, in what set -- which data set that you aren't doing enough by having these facts laid out we can force the government, like and encourage the government into opening up the data.  So, I will say we are trying to make progress.

>> EDMON CHUNG:   Thank you.  And, with that, we are running out of time.

This will bring this session to a close, but this is, we hope this is another stop in the journey.  We started this journey about a year ago, and have had actually this is the different places that we've had sessions like this, and we continue to plan forward incline au, in Hong Kong, in Canada, in Korea, in Thailand, in Vietnam, in Taiwan, in Japan, and here in France, and our next stop will be in Australia, just tomorrow, which I'm flying over for, but I think the point is to think about the narrative from just talking about connectivity and the Internet to how the Internet and what we call digital mobility is actually supporting or not supporting young people and their development and in terms of the competitiveness all the young people in the different places.

So, thank you for joining us, and you can keep following up with our work at YMI.Asia as well.

Thank you.