IGF 2020 - Day 3 - OF14 Copyright and inclusion

>> MODERATOR: Good morning, good afternoon, good evening.  Depending on your time zone, welcome to the WIPO Open Forum on Copyright and Inclusion. 

My name is Paolo Lanteri and I'm your moderator today.  It is good to be once again back participating at the IGF and seeing many old friends and colleagues of the IGF community.  Certainly for most of you, the World Intellectual Property Organization, it is best known as the place, the organization where you would go if you need to protect an invention and you want to get a Patent or you want to register the trademark.  This is our core mandate and maintaining this system.  In parallel, as a complement to that mandate, WIPO, together with its Member States has also developed over the years initiatives and areas of work that are focusing on specifically facilitating access to content and information to the widest possible audience.  Today we're going to talk about, of course, access, notably for Persons with Disabilities.  The objective of this open forum, it is precisely to present and share with you information about the work of the organization in this area, related to inclusion which sometimes is less known to the general public and to the international community in general.  We're going to cover three main topic, first, of course, the Marrakesh Treaty, facilitating access to published works for persons who are blind, visually impaired or otherwise print disabled.  It was adopted in 2013 and has experienced the process of ratification and accession with the unprecedented speed.  In less than ten year, we have 75 contracting parties that cover over 100 countries of the world.  This is perhaps one of the best examples of an ambitious, pragmatic, impactful multilateral treaty that international community was able to agree upon in recent years.  Then we'll talk about the accessible book consortium, ABC, and all of the ambitious activities, it is a story of cooperation, solidarity, impact already changing the lives of thousands of people that have visual impairment involving developing and developed countries.

Finally we'll cover a more general topic about the challenges and technical solutions to solve the challenges for enabling access to content and information by Persons with Disabilities in general.  As you know well, the motto of IGF 2020 is internet for human resilience and solidarity virtually together.  When we would have known about this motto when we prepared the proposal, we didn't know what COVID ‑‑ the impact of COVID on our world, but we believe the motto reflects very well the values and principles that are inspiring the work and initiatives that we're going to present to you today.

Without further ado, I'll now give the floor to Scott Labarre who is joining us from Denver, Colorado, so very early in the morning.  Scott is a true champion of the Marrakesh Treaty in the World Blind Union and I'll leave Scott to tell you about his experience and impact of the Marrakesh Treaty.

The Scott, the floor is yours.

>> SCOTT LABARRE: Good morning. 

Hopefully you can hear and see me okay.  I join you from Centennial, Colorado, a suburb of Denver.  I'm a bit sleepy, I must admit this morning, I was up here until past 2:00 a.m. local time.  It is now a little after 5:00 a.m. following, of course, our election.  The election stands exactly where it was when I tried to get a couple of hours of sleep.  In other words, there are 7 states right now that are undetermined, undecided, and I have noted since I did go asleep, that the lead has changed in some of those states and flip‑flopped back and forth.  When some of the experts were saying here it is not election night, it will be election week, I believe that.  All I can say from the United States is stay tuned.  It is absolutely insane that we are going through this again, but that appears to be the nature of our politics here in the United States.

Regardless of the politics of the United States, and I want to talk about the Marrakesh Treaty very briefly, I have about 10 minutes, and I won't do the topic much just in such a short period of time, but I will do what I can.  Of course, if anybody on the webinar is interested in more information they certainly know how to get ahold of WIPO and know how to get in touch with the folks in Geneva who know exactly how to get in touch with me and I don't know how much information is shared through this platform, through the profiles, but please feel free to get in touch with me.

For me, you know, the whole Marrakesh Treaty is personal.  I am a blind person.  I went blind at age 10 in 1978 and one of the things I very much enjoyed to do before I lost my vision was read.  I was very fond of going into my school's library and reading books and when I went blind the assumption I made, now, you know, as a young child, but the assumption I made, it was that I wouldn't be able to read any more because I assumed that to read meant you had to read print.  I had heard of braille, I had never thought that it really was much of a thing, that it was used very much.  When I did go blind, after I adjusted to going blind, I learned, well, there were books in what we called in the United States at the time a specialized format.  In that time period, it meant really one of two things, you could get books in braille, that were produced in what we call hard copy braille, they were bound books, pretty big items that came to you in the mail, and we had one major source for accessible books in the United States, the National Library Service, and at that time we called it the National Library Service for the Blind and Print Handicapped.

So you could get books in braille.  Now, it took a long time for them to produce these books.  Why?  Well, that's the very topic that we're discussing here. 

First of all, before they even thought about putting the book into braille, and I'll talk about the other format in a minute, they had to go off, get the permission of the copyright holder, because technically you were making a copy of the book and if you didn't get permission, you were making a copy of the book without permission.

Getting that permission from the copyright holder wasn't always easy, either the copyright holder didn't want to give it or it just would take a huge long time.  I remember very much that if my friend were reading a new book, it would take a couple of year, literally, for me to be able to get that new book in braille.

The other format produced in that time period, 40 plus years ago, it was books on record.  Yes!  Record!  A vinyl record that spun around and round.  You had to have a special record player.  These books were recorded at a much slower speed on the record player.  If you tried to take one of these National Library Service records and put them on a regular turntable, it sounded like the chipmunks.  It was so fast.  Standard Blums ‑‑ standard albums in the united they were recorded at a different evolution a minute and these books were 8RPMs per minute, you had to have a specialized record player from the talking book Library of That was one of two ways to get access to books.  It was great!  I thought it was great at the time!  It meant I could still read.

Later, you know, soon after I became blind they switched to tapes, cassette tapes.  Again, they recorded them in a specialized manner.  I won't go into all of that.  Here's the point, that system really meant that I had to wait years, literally speaking, to read the same book that my cited friends and colleagues were reading and in 1996, the organization to which I'm actually general legal counsel to, the National Federation of the Blind here, and it is part of the World Blind Union, by the way, and that's on whose behalf I'm speaking this morning afternoon, evening, wherever you are. 

Anyway, in 1996 the NFB worked in partnership with the Association of American Publishers and we got into law something called the Chafee Amendment, it was named after the politician who sponsored the amendment.  It was an amendment to our copyright law, 17 United States Code and it turned out to be Section 121 and what we did with 17USC121, we said if you're reproducing a book into a specialized format on a non‑profit basis you can do that without getting the permission of the copyright holder.

This ended up being a big deal.

NLS, leading source of our books in the U.S., they could start recording a book into audio right away, producing it into braille right away, and our wait time decreased substantially, this was a huge victory.  That effort in the United States, later, there is a lot of history to this, I don't have the time to tell you, the short story in 2008 ultimately, a bunch of organizations led by the World Blind Union got together here in the United States in Washington D.C. matter of fact, saying, you know what, we ought to have a treaty that does what we did in the United States and some other nations, we ought to have a treaty that not only makes sure that you can have this exception to copyright law to reproduce books into accessible formats but not only that, but that we can share them across international borders because that really wasn't permitted and it was unclear in most cases whether you could share these books across international borders.  What was happening, Canada would reproduce the same book as the United States, Australia, New Zealand, all of these English speaking countries, the Spanish countries would do the same thing and we ought to have a treaty.  That treaty was formally tabled before the World Intellectual Property Organization Standing Committee on Copyright and Related Rights in 2009, it was brought by originally Brazil, Ecuador and Paraguay.  Later joined by Mexico, then we got into four very, very intense years of negotiations.  This was the first time that a copyright treaty, a proposed copyright treaty was creating rights for non‑right holders exclusively.  Other treaties that addressed copyright would give rights to non‑right holders, but only when rights were expanded or granted to right holders and creators.  People were very scared of this treaty.  Ultimately, what happened, through a period of lots and lots and lots of hours, you know, I literally spent ‑‑ I don't know, I couldn't even tell you how many thousands of hours in the halls of WIPO there in Geneva, and in the halls of the meeting forms in Marrakech, negotiating this treaty.  There was a lot of technical detail.  The bottom line is, on June 28th, 2013, the Marrakesh Treaty was adopted by WIPO and has since met as referred to, historic, rapid adoption by the world community.  Right now it is adopted by ‑‑ ratified and acceded to by some 75 different countries and Unions which applies currently to 101 nations, among them is the United States, which we got our ratification done a couple of years ago which became effective in 2019.  Immediately prior to the U.S., the European Union, and why are those two entities important?  They are because millions of accessible titles live in the United States and in the E.U.  When the U.S. and the E.U. adopted, ratified the treaty they not only did so in terms of a pure ratification, but passed implementing legislation so that there was a way to implement the provisions of the Marrakesh Treaty.  Work has already begun in earnest and quite prolifically in exchanging books between the United States and the E.U. and other Marrakesh Treaty countries, Monica can address that to some degree with respect to what ABC is doing with the E.U. and U.S. ratifications. 

Actually implementing the treaty into law is a key step.  I'm afraid to say one of the things that we haven't done quite as well yet, it is getting countries who have ratified or acceded to the Marrakesh Treaty, getting them to implement provisions of the treaty into domestic laws.  We have a lot of work to do in that.  The U.S. and the E.U. have done that at least.  I think I probably am out of time.  I will stop here.  I will wait later for question, whatever, and there is so much to be said about the Marrakesh Treaty.  I could literally talk for days I suppose.  Obviously I'm able to even talk about it at 5:30 in the morning somehow.  I do have a big cup of coffee here.  I guess I'm okay!  Thank you!

>> MODERATOR: Thank you very much.  I will ask you to mute.  Okay.  Great.

Without transition, I will give the floor to Monica Halil to tell us about how the promise of the Marrakesh Treaty is actually becoming a reality.

The floor is yours.

>> MONICA HALIL: Good morning, hello, everybody.  I want to make sure, you can see my screen?  Hello?

>> MODERATOR: Yes.  We can.  Very well.

>> MONICA HALIL: Thank you.

I'm here to talk about the Accessible Books Consortium.  I'm head of ABC, and I would like to talk about how technology can be a gateway to inclusivity.

Following with what Scott said, in terms of the Marrakesh Treaty, ABC as it is known, is a public private partnership led by the World Intellectual Property Organization including the World Blind Union, the DAISY Consortium, the International Consortium of Education of People with Visual Impairment, International Federation of Library Associations and the International Authors Forum, Publisher's Association and the International Federation of Reproduction Right Organizations.  It brings together all of the key players in the let's say supply chain of making an accessible format book.  It was established in June, 2014 in front of the Member States of WIPO.  Its purpose.

Scott spoke to you about the legal framework of how, you know, important Marrakesh Treaty is for getting books into the hands of people who are print disabled.  It is a landmark historic treaty, as he very clearly explained.  It setup the legal framework.  It doesn't actually move books from country X to country Y.  What ABC seeks to do is implement the objectives of the treaty at an operational level.  We're the practical arm, if you will.  We're one initiative of many.  We're not, you know ‑‑ we don't ‑‑ we're not a monopoly.  We do seek to get books into the hands of people who are print disabled.

Now, to give a bit of context, Scott spoke about his personal story, unfortunately his is not unique.  There are 253 million people around the world that are blind or have low vision, it was a World Health Organization estimate, and it is estimated that less than 10% of all published works are in accessible formats.  Those are pretty ‑‑ you know, those are big numbers.  This is an issue that impacts a lot of people.

We have the global book service, capacity building, we provide training and technical assistance to non‑profit organizations in developing or least developed country, and we have something called accessible publishing where there is more inclusive publishing techniques with publishers and I will take out each one of these in term.

First, the ABC global book service, what is this?  This is a technical platform ran by WIPO, funded by WIPO, whereby we have a global catalog of titles in accessible formats.  It is a membership only service and the members are libraries for the blind, they're known as authorized entity, the terminology used in the Marrakech Treaty, and this service allows members, the library, the authorized entities to search, request, then deliver, get the delivery of the accessible titles from around the world.  Scott had mentioned, for example, the national library services of the United States, they're one of our early members of the ABC global book service as are actually 22 of 27 Member States of the European Union.  We have really quite a large number of ‑‑ we have a large number of libraries.  In fact, we have 94 from around the world, we're soon going to hit about 100 members by the end of the year.  We have 640,000 accessible titles in 80 languages, of which, 585,000 titles are available for cross‑border exchange without the need to request permission from the copyright owner.  Again, referencing to what Scott was saying, with the Marrakesh Treaty the key provision, there are two key provision, one, you produce works in accessible formats without the reason to request permission from the copyright own, and the second key element, it is that you can ‑‑ you can conduct cross‑border exchanges of the work between countries that have ratified and implemented the provisions of the treaty.  ABC has 585,000 titles that meet those requirements where we can do the cross‑border exchanges, which really is a very substantive catalog.

Main languages, it is a screen up here with the main language, I said we have 80 but just giving an indication, I'll just sort of say a few that are common play spoken, English, we have 156,000, French, we have 103,000, we have the largest French titles in the world all in one place, Spanish, for example, 44,000 title, again, Latin America, it is critical, many countries, German, 19,000, Hebrew, 18,000, Hindi, 4,000, Russian, we'll have more titles, they have just joined us, that's an idea of the number of titles we have in the catalog.

What are the benefits of our service?  Firstly, it is free.  So if you're a library for the blind and you want to join, there is no cost.  You have a secure exchange of digital files, you know, this is a secure sort of technical platform.  You get all of the titles in one place so it is also efficient to look into one place.  If you're a library for the blind, rather than ‑‑ for example, if you are sitting in the U.K., you want to have the latest ‑‑ I don't know, top best seller for the New York Times rather than producing the work yourself, you can look and see in the ABC catalog, may, did the national library services of the United States, did they produce that title?  Then I could request it rather than, you know, producing it myself.  It is an efficient way of saving money, it is economical for libraries of the blind that are on limited budgets.

Of course, the other thing is, this is ran by WIPO and so libraries for the blind are authorized entities as we call them, they can just review one exchange contract, you have to sign a contract with WIPO if you want to join the service but that saves you time from setting up bilateral agreements with various libraries from around the world.

That's ABC, global book service.

I'll just turn quickly to capacity building, it is our second main activity where we provide ABC provides training to non‑governmental organizations, generally not‑for‑profits who serve people who are print disabled in developing countries.  We provide training in the latest accessible book production techniques, previously in the past, we would go on, you know, into the country, we would do training for a week with staff of the NGO, our partner NGOs and of course with the COVID pandemic, this is not possible with the travel revisions.  We're in the process of providing an online course, actually it should be completed next week whereby our NGO partners from the partner organizations, they could take this online training to produce accessible format works.  WIPO, ABC, they provide funding to that NGO partner to produce educational materials in national languages, all in accessible formats.

We're very proud of our capacity building program.  Here we have just a picture of a training session when it was on site from a couple of years ago, in Vietnam, we sent in trainers to do a training and how to produce books in epub3, accessible format, and unfortunately we're in the able to travel any more.  Again, with our online course, we're very hopeful that we'll continue the capacity building program.

What are our results in capacity building, we have produced over 13,000 educational book, all accessible in national languages in five year, and it also brings together all of the key players in a country because we introduce ‑‑ usually ABC introduces the players together, the NGO, the mystery of education, the publishers, I'll be very quick, I think I'm running out of time.  Our last activity, it is inclusive publishing, where we promote inclusive publishing practices to commercial publishers, we ask that books ‑‑ all book, print books start from a digital file, there is no reason why that digital file should not be made accessible and so we promote accessibility from the start, it is called born accessible, when you release a new print book on the market the eBooks should be accessible so that a sighted person can read the print or an eBook, but also visually impaired person can get the book at the same time and in an accessible form.  We would like to include accessibility descriptions of the books so that they can be provided to distributors and retailers, so that people that are print disabled, they can actually find the works and know that they're actually accessible.

I'll stop there.

Just very quickly, leaving you, if you have any question, you can look at our website at www.accessiblebooksconsortium.org.

The next speaker has ‑‑ I'll stop there.

I hope we'll have questions at the end of the session.  The next speaker, Aria Indrawati, Mitra Netra Foundation ‑ "WIPO ABC Capacity building programs: the experience of Indonesia," she'll talk about partnering with ABC, we established a partnership with them in Indonesia which was funded by actually the Government of Australia.

With that I'll hand over ‑‑ she sent a video.  You will see that via the medium of a video.

Thank you very much.

>> MODERATOR: The video should be shared from your screen.

>> Yes.  We'll ‑‑ we'll start playing it shortly.

>> MODERATOR: While waiting for the video to be screened from Jorge's screen.

A reminder, we'll be trying to leave a space for answering your questions.  It would be great if you can drop them in the Q&A box that we have on the screen so we can collect them and direct them to the right speaker.  And you're welcome to pose them on any of the topic that you have been listening to during the presentation.

The floor is yours.

>> (Video).

>> MODERATOR: Thank you very much to Aria, we send greetings, it is late at night in Indonesia.  Congratulations on your excellent work.

I now pass the floor to my colleague Rafael Ferraz and the other speaker, Dr. Christian Vogler who will talk about the last topic of access to content for Persons with Disabilities.  I'll leave you to introduce yourself, Christian Vogler and the topic.

>> RAFAEL FERRAZ: It is a pleasure to be here.

I will spend a few minutes to highlight something that we usually hear whenever we go around the world when we used to go around the world, working on the Marrakesh Treaty, that is what about the other disabilities that are not explicitly covered in the Marrakesh Treaty.  Marrakesh Treaty is focused on persons with print disability and therefore we usually hear about Persons with Disabilities and organizations working with those people, what about the other disabilities.

Of course, WIPO is fully aware that the work does not stop at the boundary of the Marrakesh Treaty and for persons with print disability, and simply the discussions, namely in the Standing Committee on Copyright and Related Rights of the WIPO continues on the topic of disabilities, usually referred to as other disabilities, understood that those disabilities beyond print disability, so this also includes visual impairment for works that are not in printed formats and more recently in 2019 we published a study, a scoping study on the national legislation around the world so we surveyed 194 Member States of WIPO to check what was the status of their corporate legislation with regard to limitation exception for Persons with Disabilities.  This also covered print disability, the object of the Marrakesh Treaty, but we would like to further investigate other disabilities that went beyond the Marrakesh Treaty.  The results of the study were very interesting, I'm projecting now in my PowerPoint some numbers of how many countries recognize a limitation, exceptional provision in the copyright legislation, and I do want to highlight that the WIPO still in the standing Committee in 2006 undertook a similar exercise of studying and evaluating national legislation and at a later time, in 2006, the result, it was that only 57 countries had an exception related to disability in their copyright laws.  You see now the findings are a bit better.  For example, we see that countries that cover all disabilities in the legislation, it comes to a number of 28 countries and these, of course, including other disabilities, community disability, physical disabilities ‑‑ cognitive ‑‑ visual disabilities for printed works, this is closely related to the Marrakesh Treaty, but also we found out a large number of legislation that has an exception on limitation for vision disabilities, beyond printed materials and also a small number have a general provision of limitation, exception, it is applicable to Persons with Disabilities, it could be applied to the exception, the discussion continues to be in the agenda of the standing Committee and is yet to see the further results, but one thing we could certainly witness, it is that the countries that were undertaking that important work, mentioned by Scott in the beginning of implementing legislation, we think that the framework of the Marrakesh Treaty, some of the countries, it also took the opportunity to cover other disabilities and many of them, we saw 28 covered all disabilities within appropriate legislation.  WIPO is aware of the fact that the challenge exists also for Persons with Disabilities that goes beyond the access of printed works, and further discussion between the Member States has taken place just this year.

I thank you very much for this brief opportunity and I would like to invite the next speaker, Christian Vogler, who will give some examples on the interaction between technologies and some of those disabilities.

Thank you very much.  Christian, the floor is yours.

>> CHRISTIAN VOGLER: Hello, everyone.  Thank you for the introduction.

Let me share my screen with my slides.  Give me one moment.

I'm a professor at Gallaudet University.  It is a University for accessibility for Deaf and hard of hearing people in Washington D.C. and I am head of research for the accessible communication technologies for the Deaf and hard of hearing center.

In this talk, I'll give you an overview of how Deaf and hard of hearing and how deafblind people access content and close with some challenges that we face in making content universally accessible and how that relates to the work of WIPO.

First, I need to show you that there are three images on the screen, a deaf woman signing, a deaf person speaking and wearing a headset and a deafblind person using a braille writer.  To emphasize that there are ‑‑ there is no one way to be deaf, we're diverse.  So many people use different modalities to communicate, depending on the situation.  For example, I sign and sometimes speak and listen depending on the situation.  So that diversity means we also have diversity ‑‑ diverse methods of accessing content, that there isn't just one way, we need multiple modalities..

This is a few examples of how deaf and hard of hearing people access content.  In this image, you see an electronic book with overlaid text as well as an African‑American women signing the content..

This is an example of Gallaudet's method, we have a center called visual language and visual learning, this is an example of how you have an eBook that can be downloaded if you want to look at that time for yourself, but the content, it is shown bilingually in American Sign Language and printed English..  Giving access to both languages, where they both reinforce one another.

It is not only limited to America, it could be applied to other sign languages, of course.  I would emphasize, this is a custom application developed for sign languages specifically and also theoretically epub could support a similar setup, but at present, the software is not ready to do that but it could be customized to do so.

The next example, it is in watching videos.

There are several ways to have captions done, and that's ‑‑ you're familiar with those.

However, it is important to recognize that every country, every type of disability may require adapted captioning.  For example, in the United States, deaf and hard of hearing people have requested verbatim captioning but often people speak too quickly at 180 to over 200 words per minute, they speak very quickly, many people can't actually read that fast.  Internationally, recommendations are about 140 words per minute.  If a person is speaking, that means that you have to do some summary of content.  It really is dependent on meeting the individual's needs.

We need more than one way to provide captions.

On this image ‑‑ on this slide there is a presentation of different users of sign language providing presentations, many people prefer to look at the signer as seeing it more accessible than captioning, but it does depend on the individual.  If you provide sign language, it is important to make the video as big as possible, at least a third of the screen.  Of course, you may want to have access to the captions at the same time, because that provides accessibility that's individually dependent.

On the next slide, you have video transcripts where you see someone signing as well as side by side transcript and someone can access that transcript using a braille reader.  Many videos are providing transcripts, more and more, and that provides better access for deafblind people, blind people and low vision people and neurodiverse individuals because sometimes it is easier to read the full transcript.  Often the transcripts are added, providing additional information as visual descriptions.

One problem with transcripts, it is they're not integrated with the video.  So if the shares the video, the transcript often is lost because they're not tied to each other.

Another way to consume media is to listen to podcasts.  Podcasts, it is really a big challenge for deaf and hard of hearing people and deafblind people right now.  They're generally not accessible.

If a person can hear okay then they may be able to access it but they may need support from captions sometimes.  Right now the only option available is automated speech recognition, and that's an example on an iPhone, you can get ‑‑ on an Android phone you can get automated speech recognition, but quite often that recognition, it is full of errors.  The best way for podcasts to be accessible generally is to provide full well edited transcripts.  That provides more access in general for any one listening to a podcast, including individuals who are deafblind using it for braille readers, as well as people who have oral disabilities and can listen to only a part of the podcast.  Those are all of the examples.

Now let's talk through some of the challenges.

There are many different ways to access content.  That requires a lot of different formats.  Many software tools don't support all formats.  Both for content accreditations, as well as for consuming content, generally.  Publishers, they're not necessarily invested in producing those other contents the same way they are for blind people.  So often somebody needs to take responsibility for creating that access, which mean there is are barriers through copyright and digital rights management as well.

There's nothing comparable to the Marrakesh Treaty for these formats.  There's some promise of artificial intelligence to provide access, specifically through automated speech recognition, but I'll tell you right now, it is not a ready technology.

It sometimes works, but sometimes it doesn't and bad things can happen if ASR fails and I have an example of that.

This is a video of a cooking show, and the presenter is thanking the guest but it seems to be that AI misinterpreted it to say that God hates Muslims.  It is a horrible mistake.  That's not what was actually said.

The AI was not able to recognize that mistake.

You have to be careful when using that technology.

To wrap up, there are many issues and things not included in the Marrakesh Treaty as Rafael looked at in the study, how do we add all of the other disabilities into creating accessible content?  Thank you.

>> MODERATOR: Thank you very much, Christian, Rafael, of course, Monica, Aria, and Scott before.  I think we covered a large set of issues.

We have two questions.  We don't have a lot of time.  I'll start with the question through the box, both are for ABC and then a follow‑up question regarding Christian's presentation.

Monica, we have the first question, it comes from a good friend of ours, former ABC colleague, Nicolia, I understand he's based in Chile right now, he would like to say to us whether ABC has seen an increase in downloads of accessible books since the beginning of the pandemic?  That's the first question.

The other question, it comes from Camila, it would be good to know which country she's coming from, and she's asking what are the means of ABC to work with NGOs, so countries that have not signed yet the treaty to speed up the process to educate, training, with NGOs.  She's from Romania, a member of the treaty I guess. ‑‑ no.  Not yet.

Okay.  Monica, if you could tackle those two questions as quickly as you can.

>> MONICA HALIL: Sure.  Of course.  Nick, nice to get your question.

In terms of your question about whether we saw an increase in the number of downloads, remember we're a library to library platform so, unfortunately, I cannot ‑‑ we kept steady, I can't say we saw an increase, we saw a big increase in 2019 before the pandemic, actually I have to say it slowed down a bit during the pandemic, during the actual close down, if we say March to June, that was slow down.  Many of the libraries actually closed.