The following are the outputs of the captioning taken during an IGF virtual intervention. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.
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>> We all live in a digital world.
We all need it to be open and safe. We all want to trust.
>> And to be trusted.
>> We all despise control.
>> And desire freedom.
>> We are all united.
(No audio).
>> We have good technical assistance behind us. So I will start again, I think. Right?
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK‑NOIRJEAN: My name is Martyna Derszniak‑Noirjean, and I'm sharing moderation of this panel with my colleague Karol. Say hi again.
>> KAROL MUZ: I'm saying hi again. My name is Karol Muz, and I represent the European Center based in consumer protection.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK‑NOIRJEAN: Welcome to everybody, of course, again, online and off site. And we are really happy to be here.
So this panel, concerns the sustainable consumption in e‑commerce, and I'm pretty sure that all of you have ‑‑ have already heard lots of panels on this and participated in conversations because that's a very big issue nowadays. Not the least because of the pandemic which has even further exacerbated the switch to ‑‑ to online shopping and online marketplaces have become even more important, than they have been before. And even before the pandemic, we know this there has been a very, very rapid development, and consumers were becoming even more acquainted with shopping online.
But, for us, if ‑‑ you know, if you are all aware of this kind of dual transition. On one hand we are trying to support and mitigate the risks of moving online and digitizing commerce. At this time, there's a topic of green transition and the panel here is aiming at exploring this convergence of those both issues, the digital and green transition. So we'll try to look at the different opportunities, the different threats that are connected to sustainable consumption in eCommerce, trying to kind the synergies between the digital transition and the green transition. So doing sustainable consumption online, and we'll try to approach this in a very, very interactive way. So we will invite everybody here on site to speak up and I don't know if you can see our table, but our table is full of panelists on one side, and participants on the other.
Some of us are still also behind, but we invite everybody to come in front. And also everybody online can also speak up and share their views.
So, you know, when we will talk about this, we also want to emphasize look at this problem of sustainable consumption in a very broad and holistic way. So we'll also encourage everybody to share and to think about key words such as digital inclusion, digital sovereignty, to think about consumer behavior online and how ‑‑ how online marketplaces and digital environment influences consumer behavior and perception. And also, think about, you know ‑‑ have a little bit of a global outlook. Think about developing developed countries, think about vulnerable consumers, different groups of consumers. So we encourage all of you to think about this in a very broad way.
We have on our panel, a very, very nice and very excellent panelists and we have a very broad representations of different actors. So I'm quite confident that we'll be able to have a very ‑‑ a very broad perspective on this issue. So next, I will introduce the panelists and start with the introductory, and they can share theirs. And then we will go to a short brainstorming exercise on sustainable commerce. And then we have a question to the audience, but I won't tell you now what it is. And in the second part of the workshop, women make a round of questions my colleague Karol here. I will introduce our panelists and everybody there can just switch on and say hi. So we have Nils Behrndt, who is the director of consumer at digital is, and acting deputy directors.
>> NILS BEHRNDT: Good morning from Brussels.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK‑NOIRJEAN: Peter Andrews from consumer international. He's the director of consumer rights and impact.
>> PETER ANDREWS: Good morning from London.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK‑NOIRJEAN: And Augustin Reyna, the director of legal and economic affairs.
>> AGUSTIN REYNA: Hello, hi, everyone.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK‑NOIRJEAN: We have Marta Grybs Kabocik.
>> MARTA GRYBS-KABOCIK: Hello, it's a measure to be here.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK‑NOIRJEAN: Great to have you here, Claire Scharwatt I'm not sure I pronounced this correctly.
>> CLAIRE SCHARWATT: Thank you. This is perfect. Good morning from Paris.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK‑NOIRJEAN: And with our colleague, Maciej Czaplinski.
>> MACIEJ CZAPLINSKI: Hello, good morning, everyone.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK-NOIRJEAN: So I had to everybody online and offsite. So the first question that I think ‑‑ and we all think our panelists agree we should start with. It's a very fundamental question when thinking about ‑‑ about transiting to sustainable consumption in the eCommerce environment, and the question is what is the reason to sustainable consumption? What is the ‑‑ what do consumers gain from sustainable consumption and in different areas, different fields and what is ‑‑ is it just an economic gain is it a social gain? Is it also environment gain? So I would like to everybody to share your perspective on this, perhaps we will start with our panelists, anybody who would like to raise ‑‑ raise your hand to speak up, please raise your hand here on Zoom and we'll share the floor with you. You can also speak up directly and anybody on the online audience can also raise their hands, everybody here on site can also do the same and raise your hand physically. So I will just wait a second to see who would like to speak up.
Otherwise, I think we can start with a round of our panelists, perhaps, Nils. Would you like to share your perspective?
>> NILS BEHRNDT: Thanks a lot, Martyna. It's the three of the aspects that you mentioned. Let's say at an individual level, and I think it's very important that the engagement in sustainable consumption is not just serving the interest of the broader world and the future generations. That's very important. We need to make sure it's delivering benefits for the consumers themselves, in terms of having better products, products that last better. At the end ideally, even products where if you may have to invest a bit more at the moment of purchase, they last longer, so that over the life cycle of the products that you use, you even have an economic gain, but, of course, it's a mix of all.
It should deliver to the consumers. Sometimes it will be more expensive, at least at the moment of purchase. Sometimes even during the use of the product, and then you serve also the broader interest of our generation and the future generations, but I think it really needs to be a mix. It's not just serving the future. It also should deliver to the benefits of the consumers today.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK-NOIRJEAN: Thanks, Nils. I think this is true. It's definitely a big issue for consumption and for consumers. It benefits them in various ways it benefits in the economic way, and maybe on the long term, and there's always the question of differentiating long term from short‑term. It has also undoubtful environmental impact.
Anybody else, perhaps maybe somebody from our other panelists would like to say something about this? Marta maybe?
>> MARTA GRYBS-KABOCIK: Yes. So hello, once again. I think when we analyze sustainable consumption and the reasons why consumers stand to sustainable consumption, still when we do the reset at the university of economics at Katowice. What matters the most is economic profit. Majority of customers when they turn to ‑‑ the profit. Majority of students when they turn to the photovoltaic, or the water reduction, it gives profit to them. Not so much that they care so much about the planet, but it is changing. And we should focus on the fact that younger generations tend to take a lot of ‑‑ they like to educate on that matter and they like to take actions.
So they on one hand, once again, care about the profits but they care about what it gives to their health, to the future of their lives. So, for example, the matter of gas emission matters a lot. What matters is what happens with the waste from the digital consumption. So we shall take this topic in a very complex way. It is not an easy ‑‑ an easy answer here from the perspective of the reasons.
But then we also kind ask the question whether, it is motives that matter or the output that we have. So maybe sometimes what we shall do is we shall promote digital consumption ‑‑ sorry, not digital, sustainable consumption, even if the motives were not sustainable.
Yeah, so we shall consider it whether the final affect is not the most ‑‑ the most important, but from the perspective of university, we have to say that education and being aware is the most crucial here.
So what we try to do, we try to educate stakeholders, not only our students, but the ‑‑ but we try to educate also our future students so kids. We try to educate companies who cooperate with us, we try to educate all their ‑‑ all of our students who used to be a part of our community and now we invite them once again to be a part and we educate them in terms of digitalization and in terms of sustainability. So we hope that it will mean for them, for our community as such to become more sustainable.
So maybe education will be a reason too. Thank you so much.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK-NOIRJEAN: Thanks, Marta. I will give the floor now to Augustin.
Augustin, the floor is yours now.
Maybe this is an issue switching on: So Peter Andrews, maybe you could say something in the meantime.
>> PETER ANDREWS: Absolutely. Sustainable consumption and eCommerce is becoming more and more to consumers for a variety of reasons that other panelists have outlined. I think one the most fundamental is consumers are able to more and more align their shopping habits to their own values. As we become more and more aware of the environmental harms that are surrounding us, as well as the social injustices that are happening in our world, the fact that we can be more empowered to make decisions that impact all of these through our purchasing decisions really enables people to feel better about what they are doing.
So I think it's very critical where people can align their values to how they shop. But also, as has been touched upon, there is the economic potential benefits, that people can get from maybe accessing goods that are more efficient or have lower costs because of benefits which we are shifting around supply chains, maybe connecting consumers more directly to powers. There can be lower costs in that perspective.
But also then there's the long‑term benefit. So as well as reducing the impact on the environment with minimizing the risks of climate change, there is longer term health benefits through less pollution, there he is wastage, and so on, which are all coming together, all of these benefits coming together to support consumers in the long term, and enable them, and inspire them now more and more to ‑‑ to purchase more sustainably.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK-NOIRJEAN: Thanks, Peter and now we'll try to Augustin. Perhaps you can connect with us.
>> AGUSTIN REYNA: I was having trouble to unmute. I would like to pick up something that Nils raised in the beginning. I very much agree when we talk about benefit, we need to take a very broad perspective. But when it comes to the green transition as we call it or developing a more sustainable economy or society, this is a matter of survival at the end of the day. We are in a crisis, and it's not like an economic crisis that will pass. It's a crisis that's here to stay. So the question is how we can mitigate of negative effects by the way we produce, we distribute goods, we consume as well, certainly.
And in this regard, I think that making the green transition attractive to consumers and to businesses is fundamental to attain that goal of developing a more sustainable economy, which at the end this transition has become an end in itself, and I think this is very important to bear in mind because we are going to succeed only if we will make the different sectors of the economy change the way they produce and how consumers to be able to consume and to make decisions in a more informal and conscious manner.
There have been a ‑‑ there was an interesting article a couple of years, that was called "The Elusive Green Consumer." And this is basically about why consumers express so much concern about the environment and the impact of consumption on the environment, but when they act, those actions do not reflect those concerns.
And, of course, there are many reasons to explain this. And one, we need to think about the incentives that governments, in our case, European Union, for example, will have to create both for companies and businesses to be able to develop a more sustainable ‑‑ a more sustainable economy. So I think this is extremely, extremely important to think about creating the right incentives and entertain that goal. Thank you.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK-NOIRJEAN: Thanks, Augustin. That's a very nice insight. Claire, would you like to share something. In?
>> CLAIRE SCHARWATT: Sure, thank you very much. Well, it really has been said so let me give an illustration of how we are looking at this at Amazon. As far as we are concerned, we are absolutely committed to sustainability for all the reasons that you highlighted. We cofounded the climate plat two years ago, this is a commitment to reach net‑zero by 2040. It's very ambitious. And to achieve this target, we are investing in a huge range of projects that will help us in that way, and I think a green transition example that can illustrate the link between these investments and the transition to sustainability consumption, which is the theme from this workshop is the launch of our climate plat friendly program in 2020. This is a program that helps customers to easily discover and identify products on our website, that have more ‑‑ one or more certifications that help to protect the natural world.
So this is quite powerful. This is really about raising awareness of these products, which I think is something that Marta highlighted, and we find that this is something that customers really value.
In Europe, our customers can shop more than 100,000 climate‑friendly products across a range of categories, across grocery, households, fashion, beauty, et cetera. So that's, I think a very concrete example of how we can enable this transition to sustainable consumption.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK-NOIRJEAN: Thank you. And I think many of you have talked about the education, and consumer behavior and consumer choices online and also some of you mentioned the discrepancies between the declarations the consumers make about having sustainable ‑‑ acting sustainably, and the actual choice and maybe perhaps Marta could say anything about this their perspective of consumer complaints we receive at the office.
>> MACIEJ CZAPLINSKI: We don't get many complaints they office. Core Polish being the sustainability of products and traders is not yet a very important issue. It's rather a niche for ‑‑ and obviously, it's also a place for developments, and this is where we as the office of competition and we see our role also to educate, to ‑‑ to empower consumers and try to create a friendly environment for the consumers ‑‑ for the future.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK-NOIRJEAN: Yeah, exactly. So I think ‑‑ I think it all really boils down to awareness, the behavior, and to choice, and I think this is precisely why it's so interesting to tackle sustainable behavior and sustainable consumption choices in the digital ‑‑ in the context of digital environment. So this is why now I would like if we all think about how the e‑environment and the digital environment influences our sustainable behavior and to think in what way it has a positive impact, in what way it is an opportunity to now transition to more sustainable behavior. What is so particular about digital environment that can help us and is an opportunity for us to move to consume more sustainably and on the other hand, what are the ‑‑ what are the risks or what are the possible negative impacts on consumer us is ‑‑ sustainable consumer behavior online?
We'll be writing down all of your ideas. Karol will try to keep track of everything and later we will share that so you can see the outcome of this brainstorming, and anybody is free to speak up.
Yes, sure, go ahead.
>> PARTICIPANT: My name is Arceni, and I have been working in the ICT sector for quite long. I'm an IT consultant. Particularly I have seen the transition in the retail market during the pandemic, the eCommerce market just skyrocketing 4 trillion straight. And now, we see that eCommerce market will increase more and more. It is also developing a habit of us that now we feel very easy. We have the mobile apps and whenever we want something, we just search. We filler and see, compare the prices and we just order.
If we compared with the retail market and eCommerce market behavior in the physical retail market domain, it was very high for the brands to manage and infrastructure and everything, and in the commerce, the cost is low. That is why the prices in the eCommerce market are lowing and that's also adding to higher consumption.
But the actual question comes here is that not only the consumption, how much we are purchasing, but every time when we are purchasing, there's a packaging material coming with that. And we are creating a lot of trash with that. So maybe we should also think about it that we reduce that packaging material. It will also help us economically to reduce the cost of those goods which we are receiving. It will be economical for the buyer, as well as for the seller to store it. That's, I think, I would like to say. Thank you.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK-NOIRJEAN: I think this is a really excellent point. On the one hand, you mentions it's easier for consumers to comparison this is a little bit of a tool which facilitate a little bit of it, or should support sustainable behavior, but on the other hand, the switch online is lowering prices, and perhaps the barrier between ‑‑ for consumer between, you know, making the choice ‑‑ shopping, making the choice is a little bit lower and then we tend to consume more, just because of the price but it's easier to buy and have it sent to my place. So it's a really excellent point, yes.
Nils, would you like to go next?
>> NILS BEHRNDT: Yes, thanks a lot, Martyna. This leads us to the issue. I think it's great that you put the green and the commerce. And, of course, the digital transition offers a lot of opportunities in terms of greener consumption. Some have been raised already now. Yes, online, we often have a broader choice of products and services, and therefore, we may be able to go as consumers for the greener products.
Yes, we also might find better information about the environmental aspects of product and services. And to also for enormative companies, via the online sales channels, they have the possibility not just to sell in their backyard, let's say in the near physical proximity and good enormative green products throughout the union and even beyond. At the same time, there are significant pitfalls in, let's say this interlinkage between the green and the digital transition.
First, already to run the e‑commerce, you have a heavy IT infrastructure, which consumers a lot of energy in itself, and then if we are ordering individual products, you have the problem of the logistics which cause a lot of environmental impact, and you have, indeed the individual packaging, which already was referred to.
And let's say we also see at the union level, when we are digging into this interlinkage, that we are clearly not there yet. Recently, we did an analysis together with the national authorities on green claims of information about the environmental characteristics of products used in the online environment, and more than 50% of the green claims we looked at did not comply with the most basic requirements in terms of sending a clear message and following a clear methodology, et cetera. So there was heavy green washing and confusion of consumers happening.
And I think, let's say, this question whether we will come to synergies between the digital and the green transition or whether the two will go in wrong, opposite directions for me is an open question. It's not a given that the digital transition will contribute to the green transition. It could go to the wrong direction. We have talked about rules. Yes, we need clear rules for the actors in the online market. At the same time, online players like Amazon and we have Claire here, have a huge influence because even if you go on those kind of online places, we know that consumers are easily influenced. They are matched into decisions.
And now the question is if a consumer looks for a problem on an online marketplace, what will be proposed to the consumer. Because the consumer may not go for the first product, so which products are pushed to the consumer and therefore the data use of the consumer? The role of the platforms is critical. How those two transitions will work together, let's say in a symbiotic positive way or a conflictive, negative way really for me is an open question.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK-NOIRJEAN: I think these are very good insights. As you mentioned also very important, the role of green washing and the role of platforms. And before, perhaps we can give Claire something to say about this, we can also give the floor to Agustin.
>> AGUSTIN REYNA: Thank you. Very briefly. I totally agree with the unions, the digital transition, the digital world in which we are living can offer opportunities, introducing appropriate green matches, and helping consumers go to more sustainable options and also go in the wrong direction. I think we are already seeing that.
As we know, eCommerce has made shopping very, very easy. And it also meant a huge opportunity for companies to create, basically needs and create wants. So that's how we stimulated at the end of the day over consumption with all the consequences that we are seeing, emissions, increase of emissions due to distribution, shipping from very, very far away, products and goods, the increase of waste, packaging, you all have mentioned several negative ‑‑ negative items of eCommerce.
But here, while I think it's very, very important to think about is, as I say before, one the incentives that we are going to make. You know, both ‑‑ not only economic, but also noneconomic for the companies in order to actually help consumers who correct the consumption behavior in a certain way. And the fact that we are seeing so many misleading green claims is something extremely problematic. Because as I said before, consumers are very sensitive about the climate crisis and that also can play in the hands of companies that might be able to explore that, which is simply profiting the purposes and therefore, undermined the trust that consumers might have in future and genuine environmental claims.
So I think this is something very important to bear in mind and also the level of enforcement, as we mentioned, we need new rules. We need clear rules, but also we need to enforce what we have, and in this regard, it was really alarming to seat results of this exercise.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK-NOIRJEAN: Thanks, Augustin. Perhaps the panelist here on site. Marta.
>> MARTA GRYBS-KABOCIK: Yes, I would like to refer to what was already said about the fact that what stands behind eCommerce is an amazing amount of equipment. So when we calculate it, it's more than 200 million turns and if we compare it to the country, the carbon footprint is two or three times beggar than France, for example. So it is huge. It is one of the minus of eCommerce and digital consumption.
On the other hand, when we talk about green washing, we are saying what companies say to the consumers, and that is consumers get information from the sources like companies, like universities, like official sites, but what really happens is more than 75%, according to our research, 75% consumers, really value the fact that they can join online communities that, they can join Facebook sites and read about digital consumption from there.
So what we really should talk about is also ‑‑ is also the quality of information they get. And if there's any control over what they read, because it's really amazing power and it is actually an advantage that consumers can share their experience, that this power of crowd, the crowd sourcings, but on the other hand, who controls what they share?
So sometimes it might be a very good experience but sometimes it might be something wrong, like the fake news, and there is no control over that. And what is the influence of that on sustainable consumption or the opposite ‑‑ the opposite of it?
So I think this is also a pretty important issue here. Thank you.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK-NOIRJEAN: Thank you. Maciej, go ahead.
>> MACIEJ CZAPLINSKI: I would like to develop more on this issue that eCommerce requires companies to get fully sustainable. You cannot be partially sustainable if you want to sell online, because consumers will instantly unveil all the greenwashing that is in place. And from my perspective, the power of making a comment on Facebook is huge for consumers. And so they can ‑‑ they can easily show that companies are not sustainable, even if they claim to be sustainable.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK-NOIRJEAN: Thank you, Maciej. Peter Andrews, you have the floor now.
>> PETER ANDREWS: Thank you. Yes, I ‑‑ we believe that online shopping has the potential to be less damage to the environment than traditional in‑store shopping but that is only if we do it right. And all stakeholders really need to make concrete steps to ensure the sustainability opportunities of the eCommerce are grasped.
We touched on a number of areas. One is shining through is a lack of information or a lack of adequate information is one of the key barriers from adopting more sustainable lifestyles. Now we know that more and more claims are being made by all types of different businesses around sustainability. They know consumers are much more interested in this issue, and ‑‑ and therefore, businesses are taking advantage of this and one example in the past four years, the number of clothes and accessories described as sustainable has quadrupled in the US and the UK. They are using "vegan" and conscious and eco but without always sufficient backing as to what that means.
Now, where consumers become aware of particular issues that conflict with those claims, they start to lose trust in the marketplace. And that lack of trust has a big negative impact on the sustainability, particularly of brands that are trying ‑‑ the brands and the businesses that are trying to do the right thing in providing robust, sustainable products to consumers.
So we've got a real effort to focus on here and it does require all actors to play a role, businesses, governments, policymakers, standard setting bodies as well as consumers and consumer organizations to play a role.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK-NOIRJEAN: I think now we will move to Claire because we have spoken about the role of online marketplaces in the way they ‑‑ on the one hand, you know, Peter has been more optimistic than Nils in terms of saying that the ‑‑ the shift to digital marketplaces is perhaps an opportunity for ‑‑ for supporting consumers to consume more sustainably, but also everybody from our panelist agrees that online marketplaces have a very important role to play here in the way that they filter through all the offers that are available online and ‑‑ and have also a little bit of control over the claims they are making. And at the same time, allow a platform for consumers to be able to choose, to select and also control their systems that make the suggestions to consumers. So Claire go ahead and tell us what you think about this.
>> CLAIRE SCHARWATT: Thank you. Well, I think I'm also on the optimistic side, building on what Peter said, we also believe that eCommerce represents the great opportunity to actually lower the carbon emissions associated with retail. So this is one of the key conclusions from a recent study led by Oliver Wyman in collaboration with the university of Senegal that shows that buying the product online results in 2.3 times less emissions of CO2 equivalent, as buying in a physical store. So that is actually very encouraging but that being said, we also recognize the challenges associated with online retail.
So this is something we need to be humble about. I think one of the participants mentioned packaging. I can talk about it a little bit. We are really working hard to improve the sustainability of our packaging. That's one thing, but also to reduce the amount of packaging that we use. And I think that was also mentioned earlier by some of the other speakers. So just a few examples in how we are doing this. So we have incented machine learning algorithms to help us make the smartest packaging choice for customer orders. So this is something that our customers want, right? They want to receive their package in the right size, recyclably packaging that will minimize waste on their end.
Obviously, Wyman showing that the delivery is damage‑free. So that's one thing. We also launched a program called frustration‑free packaging in 2008, and this is to encourage manufacturers to package their products in a packaging that is ready to ship to customers, without the need for additional Amazon boxes or all the packaging. This is ‑‑ this is really important and just to give you an example, of what it looks like basically. This is something I received yesterday. I ordered it on Amazon, and I received it like this. There's no over packaging. And I think this is really the direction that we want to take. So today, we have about 2 million products that are already available through this program, but, you know, what we're doing is really working hard with our vendors like Philips, Hasbro, to re‑design their packaging. So there's a lot of work that needs to be done. So actually, we need to be very humble about it but we are on the optimistic side. There are things we can do.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK-NOIRJEAN: Thanks a lot. I think Nils, would you like to take the floor again.
>> NILS BEHRNDT: Yes, thanks a lot. Sorry for coming in again. It's not just a question of being pessimistic and off the mystic. That's something I would really ‑‑ off the mystic. That's something I would like to really stress. The interlinkage between the digital and the sustainability. The eCommerce will continue to grow after the pandemic. We are still in the pandemic. Not in the black and white where you have pure online shops and pure physical shops. It will intertwine more which I think is a healthy development. But online eCommerce is the growing trend of the future. There's no question about it and huge opportunities. But how this interlinks with the sustainable choices is an open question. And we should not take anything for granted.
Let me give you two examples. One is if you buy shoes, in a normal brick and mortar shop, you will try different sizes. You will walk with the shoes and then you go for the right shoes which max your feet. Online, you will order several sizes and we are wrestling with the problem, what happens with the products which are sent back to the trader? That's a massive problem. Even if the product is sent back to the trader are not thrown away, which happens in some cases, you still have the sending back and forth.
Pat second point and there again the role of the platforms is very important. We want consumers to make a conscious choice for the green products. If you go for, let's say a comparison website, done, for example, by a consumer organization, the consumer organization will inject the knowledge they have about the environmental characteristics of the product, the use of chemicals, et cetera, in their comparison website. But this kind of rather complex comparison of products cannot be done by an online platform.
So then the question, what kind of products are promoted on the online platform become very important? So just two examples to show there is a lot of, let's say work to be done, to make sure that this huge potential of the online commerce is also delivering on our green ambitions.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK-NOIRJEAN: No, Nils, I agree with you totally we are at a stage to make the best of it. And really ‑‑ it's not something we should take for granted. It's a transition stage. It's a development stage where we can take the opportunity to use the synergy between sustainable development and the shift to eCommerce. It's actually up to us how we will make it and steer the development.
I think we have to identify the threats and the risks and at the same time look at the possibilities.
I would like to shift soon to discussing the ‑‑ the perspective of the consumers and how imperative you feel shopping online and what are your problems in terms the sustainable consumption online, but I think I will give to panelist, so the audience can think about this question as consumers. Marta, go ahead.
>> MARTA GRYBS-KABOCIK: Yes, I wanted to add something here because I felt inspired that we don't only talk about business to business, and consumer to consumer. Digital allowed this huge shadow. What the consumers have huge access to is the secondhand products and the quality of the products is really high, and we talk about all types of products in terms of sharing economy and what they share is not only clothes, cars, their flats this is also what minimize the consumption.
So we see here what is really sustainable, the consumption. The customers can share. And what companies observe is that ‑‑ that this trend is growing, and I think this is one of the reasons why, for example, Ikea or decathlon opened last week or two weeks ago in Poland, online shop, which is focused mainly on secondhand, decathlon growth and accessories and you can sell what you are not using anymore. So we see how the markets in interact and how dynamically it changes.
I think this is also a huge power of digitalization.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK-NOIRJEAN: You are exactly right and one the chat participants made a similar point. William, I don't know whether you would like to say something online or whether everybody else can refer to his message on the chat. He mentioned that digitalization, yeah, I mean, I think you have also said this here, right, that it is not ‑‑ and Marta, right, it's not just about ‑‑ it's not just about the consumers but also the businesses. The businesses have an opportunity to change their business models to focus more on the sharing economy and circular economy, as William here on the chat says because we have the digital tools that ‑‑ that are available and when we are moving our businesses online. So this is also definitely something that we should consider as an opportunity.
>> PARTICIPANT: Yes, absolutely. If you want, I can say something on this. Unfortunately, I can't share my video. What I'm thinking is we have far more clothes than we actually need. So we could probably reduce the number of clothing items that we reduce and every use every day and by two‑thirds possibly.
For example, we have a lot of clothing items that spend most of the year in the closet. So why don't we think about business models that ‑‑ that use the ‑‑ or during the time we have these clothes in the closet we actually sell them or rent them out to people to use in other areas of the world. Now we would need to perform an analysis on the environmental benefit, and we would need to compare the cost of shipping these items as compared to the number of items saved. There's a great opportunity here.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK-NOIRJEAN: I think that's a good point. Agustin, go ahead for a quick word.
>> AGUSTIN REYNA: Thank you. Just to pick up something was said in the previous session, and I think it links nicely with this discussion. Of course, we have to be optimistic. There's no other choice. But we also need to be realistic and pragmatic, and the reality is that eCommerce has increased and led to the increase of consumption. It's much easier to buy online than offline. And the point of returns that led to higher emissions we cannot get that this has a business model. It has nothing to do with the right of individual, although we heard in the past, but this is a model. Companies, you know, know their own will and interests. They freely return. They even send you a package of clothes that you have not asked for, so you can try them and send them back. So they basically have created business models around free returns.
So, of course, if you look at, okay, how then we can counter that, how do we make consumers aware of the ‑‑ the negative effects of ‑‑ of ‑‑ of free returns or these type of business models, for example, one option is, of course, trying to make consumers aware of the cost, the environmental costs of returns. And there's some examples already in the market, a shoemakers called Omberts and they try to educate people not only the conditions in their products are being produced and the emissions. So I think these type of practices make consumers more aware and we have to think twice at the time of returning a good.
And a second point that was mentioned in the session related to C2C commerce. And this is one the areas where digital commerce. You might buy it in your house and have a good deal of use some elsewhere. And stimulating C2C commerce is something that's in the interest of the environment, because one pair of shoes, clothes, whatever electronics you have in the home that you could sell to somebody else, that means one less probably bought a new one. I think this is something that we need to bear in mind, and I would love to hear, for example from Claire, you know, how Amazon will approach the question of creating secondhand markets within the platform itself.
Thank you.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK-NOIRJEAN: Thank you. So now let's make a quick exercise and put the consumer cap on, because we are all in different roles here and we are all concerned in different ways, professionally, in terms of consumer, consumer protection, and eCommerce, but we are also a consumer. To let's ‑‑ everybody will think about how do you feel? How empowered do you feel when you shop online? How empowered do you feel to shop sustainably? What kind of obstacles do you perceive? And what kind of behavioral effect of the shift to digital environment do you perceive on your own behavior? I don't know in anybody would like to say something. Go ahead, yeah.
>> PARTICIPANT: Thank you. I would like to say, like just as we were discussing before, that digital market has brought us many benefits, and different aspects of it. Westerly also at a stage where we can see the whole supply chain that are traceable and trackable it is. There can be an idea just like we have on the products, which deal with the energy. So we see how much energy they consume, just like we can enforce the same model on all other producers as well, even for the producers of clothes, and what are the environmental effects of that.
Just like we can see on the products, etable products, okay, how many calories we have and all of that. So maybe that kind of formula will create more awareness for the buyers. That also is helping the impact‑based eCommerce market. Because we can see that these small impact‑based eCommerce marks are producing and that are producing very organic and all that.
So there are positive awarenesses required and also there is more knowledge to be published in online material that will help. Thank you.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK-NOIRJEAN: Yes, exactly. I think we can use the online tools or perhaps use the digital environment to help consumers understand better their choices to perhaps make them more aware of what they are buying, the environmental impact they are buying and perhaps more comparison. But, still, this is ‑‑ this is ‑‑ there is the issue of the discrepancy between what we declare, right, Maciej, we don't receive many consumer complaints, for example, green claims that are misleading to consumers, but yet we hear a lot no Poland, we hear a lot ‑‑ a big debate on consuming sustainably and there's a lot of awareness going on, I think among our NGOs and civil society, and all the other groups, about this issue. But for some reason, consumers are still not aware or this doesn't really necessarily translate to actual choices.
So there is this kind of strange behavioral phenomenon of human choice, which is perhaps is something that we should try to tackle. I don't know if you want to share your view open what else as a consumer they would like to see. Yeah, go ahead.
>> PARTICIPANT: Thank you for the record, this is Alissa from the German Informatic Society. And I had to think about a hackathon we did a few months ago where young people programmed a plug‑in, a browser plug‑in that when you enter an online shop asks if you really want to buy this thing and then you can postpone actually clicking the buying button to later.
I think what that does or the people who are aware of such solutions are sensitized to the overall issue. So I think in terms of reaching a lot of people, there's a lot of work that has to be done not only from activists or programmists who do such things, but more so from, I don't know, general policy making, also the ‑‑ although it contradicts their market idea to sell a lot of things maybe also from the eCommerce companies themselves.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK-NOIRJEAN: Thanks a lot, and it's a great point. I like two points that you made, one is that ‑‑ so perhaps one the programs is that shopping job line is so easy, that we just go ahead and shop, and we even ‑‑ this year, between actual shopping and spending monies decreasing so it's much easier for us to shop even though ‑‑ with a little bit of less awareness that we are buying something. It so easy, it's one click, right?
So that's one thing, and I think that's also a good point to mention, and we'll perhaps try to tackle it later on in terms of what's new towards the online marketplaces, shopping sustainably, it means loss of profit for the companies. This is a discussion we will take on later.
And we will move to the discussion part with Karol, what can different actors do.
>> KAROL MUZ: Thank you, Martyna. eCommerce should be considered as a bridge between the digitalization and making the economy more sustainable and those transitions to the greener one, to the better one, more sustainable one, demands actors to play certain roles.
And those actors are, of course, consumers, of course, business, but as we can see our panelists, those are also the university representatives or consumers, organizations, and, of course, the most important initiators of the sustainable ideas which is the European Commission, and my question as Martyna said is how much action should we expect from both ‑‑ or from particular actors on this ‑‑ on this playground? And I would start from the European commission, from the Nils, and my question is, what is your responsibility and why do you think it is the most important one?
>> NILS BEHRNDT: Thanks a lot, Karol. From a point of the view of the policymakers, I think we need to find the right balance between regulated environment, which let's say sets a framework in which fair and, let's say, enormative competition takes place and at the same time, right measure of empowerment to consumers that still have a crucial role with their personal purchasing decisions. And indeed, Martyna you made a good point, sometimes not to buy is the best choice you may want to do.
So let's say, the consumers still have a very important role. For us, it's important to us that we don't impose a certain lifestyle. We don't want to restrict in any way how consumers are, let's say purchasing, are taking decisions about their own way of living. But at the same time, it's important that, for example, we have rules in place, that concern the environmental aspects of products, just an example. The repairability. One of the items that affect our footprint, is the SmartPhones. If the SmartPhone cannot be repaired then the footprint will be worse.
We want to make sure that you can repair the SmartPhone, that you have the software updates, that you can replace the battery. You need rules on the product that are circulating in the market, and also believe that we should use the power in the single market, to make sure that products that are not performing with the minimum standard of performance should not go on to the market so the consumers not impacted this. And the other question, the information we need to get right, and that's something where we are working on, in different areas of the commission, but also at national level, to make sure that consumers get the right information in terms of labor. We talked about the labor before, what kind of labor can we put forward? What kind of information? How can we protect consumers that unfair trading practices, which sometimes happen in the eCommerce. That's our perspective from a policy point of view.
>> KAROL MUZ: I can agree that clear rules are very important, and I can say that your speech was very interesting. And this time, now, I will switch to Agustin, probably what is your opinion about your responsibility as a European consumer organization?
>> AGUSTIN REYNA: Thank you. Thank you, Karol. So indeed, we are an advocacy group. What we want ultimately is the decision ‑‑ the decision‑makers, at the European level, ensure that, as I say, consumers are empowered and the right incentives are created for the companies to offer more sustainable products and business models to consumer and the consumers go for it.
We need to look at economic and noneconomic incentives. Think about legislation, what are the rules that we need in place, to attain this objective. And then basically, there are three important points that I think was mentioning, also what Nils has just explain.
So, first, we need to ensure, of course, the consumers have the right information, but we need to also to ensure most important that this information is meaningful at the end of the day and help consumers generally to make informed, sustainable choices. Here we are very much looking forward, for example, the empowerment in the green transition proposal, and that ‑‑ that is foreseen early next year, and the green claims proposal as well, which should be able to address the important efficiency that we have in the context of environmental claims and shown in this exercise.
Then a second and very important group of policies. We need to ensure that companies produce in a more sustainable manner that means creating longer lasting products, as well as the waste disposal. So there are different voices that go basically hand in hand. Here, the European Commission is busy working on this for us, the sustainable product initiative and how in the context of consumer law, which is the remnant of work, in relation to the role of guarantee rights we play, the right to repair, and so here there are many, many policy areas that come together to obtain this.
And then the final group of priorities relates to enforcement. And European Union is well‑known for having very good laws in place historically, but where we fail massively is enforcement. The different reasons for this, we don't need to go into that. A clear call is to step up on enforcement of the rules that we have. Ensure that, you know, we create precedence about what is allowed and what is not in our single market and at the end of the day. And that's not included only enforcement against environmental, misleading environmental claims, and also enforcement to ensure that dangerous products unsafe products and unsustainable products do not reach our markets.
And this is something that needs to be mentioned and as we know, many of these products come from outside the European Union that creates a problem, not only for consumers but European companies that want to play by the rules. So here we also need to think about developing a level playing field for European companies that are compliance, and in this regard, of course, a challenge will be how to ensure that these outside products that arrive in large parcels cannot the EU or if they reach it, it's consumer with our standards. Thank you.
>> KAROL MUZ: Thank you very much, Agustin. I can agree that sustainability ‑‑ sustainability is on the EU policy agenda quite important, and you made me call out that business representatives which is Clary from Amazon. Claire, do you have something to say after those two speeches about responsibilities of particular actors in this market?
>> CLAIRE SCHARWATT: Thank you.
Yes, I think we all have a role to play, and recognizing this role, being humble about it, and also being rigorous in how we are approach these challenges and this role. It's very important. We are a customer‑centric company. So our role is to give our customers the solutions that will enable them to buy online, whether it's through packaging or the climate‑friendly program that help them identify products that have certain environmental certifications. So that's one piece.
We are also using our size and our scale to serve as a catalyst, sending signals to the industry, to drive a faster transition to the carbon economy, and this is very important, for example, when it comes to accelerating the transition to zero emission transportation, for example. We're talking about electric vehicles, for example, or hydrogen.
>> KAROL MUZ: Thank you very much, Claire. I think I can move to my colleague from the office, Maciej, I know him quite a long time and I know that he has quite ‑‑ quite strong opinions about some kind of business practices or he can cite something ‑‑ some tips that he observes about, for example, the last mile thing. Maciej, can you say something more about your observations regarding the making the eCommerce greener and more sustainable?
>> MACIEJ CZAPLINSKI: Yes, I think the good thing about eCommerce is it has a huge potential of reducing its carbon footprint, we have been discussing before, whether eCommerce has a bigger carbon footprint than traditional shopping. Studies differ on this ‑‑ on this issue.
So, what is certain is that a good organization ‑‑ a good organization of deliveries can reduce this carbon footprint and make the eCommerce more sustainable. I'm talking here about the role of the local governments, and obviously, there's also a place for legislation in that whole area, but there are also issues that can be solved on the local level, like organization ever deliveries. And organization ‑‑ you know, for example, if we switch to delivering goods on the last mile, in cargo bikes instead of vans, we can reduce the carbon footprint of eCommerce by 40%. So there is a lot that can be quite easily achieved.
Claire also said about reducing packaging. So that's another issue that can be done. And that's more into business or on the side of legislation, but I wanted to show and to ‑‑ to point on the rule of good organizations of deliveries on the side of local government.
>> KAROL MUZ: Thank you, Maciej. On your left side, there is Marta, who represents my favorite university in Poland, which is university of economies in Katowice, and that university is quite famous of its scientists and researchers. This is why I'm pretty sure that you are invited in here in this forum because you have a lot of interesting things to say. So I give you the floor. What is the responsibility of academia to promote or to create the practices that could lead to make transition smoothly?
>> MARTA GRYBS-KABOCIK: Thank you, Karol, very much for that introduction. I think it's worth underlying what we already said so far how important it is that consumers are aware that consumers know how to ‑‑ how to act, how to behave, and how we can kind of influence them to be more sustainable.
And the role of universities around the globe is ‑‑ is really crucial here, and we as the university of economics in Katowice, we take our role very seriously. How we see our role in making this transition smoothly, is three. First of all, we do it through the research and we do, as Karol already said, scientists who focus on sustainable consumption from the different perspectives. And what Martyna said is sometimes what consumers declare is different than what they do. This is why we do this research very ‑‑ in a very complex way. We don't focus only on what they say. We focus on what they really do. So we engage different types of research.
We focus very much on how we can nudge them, the famous ‑‑ we can nudge consumers to behave in a better way. So nudging works. It's ‑‑ it's from the economy, and we try to discover how we can really kind of guide them to be more sustainable and the research in this context is crucial.
Then what we do, and what is really important, is we educate, and on the one hand, we try to encompass sustainability in veteran or mast program, we try to showcase this in different courses. So we educate our students.
As I mentioned, we also educate the community around us. So through the programs for ‑‑ for kids, to the programs for alumni, and the communities interested, we offer them webinars. So in the digital form and we offer them different types of courses so they do become more aware. They know they can ask us questions and we ‑‑ we will let them know, but we also generally offer a free education for them which is also ‑‑ also really important here on the role of universities shall not be underestimated in this matter.
And then finally ‑‑ and then finally, we take this role from the organizational point of view. We believe it's not only the fact that we stand in front of the students and tell them something. It's also through their policies, through their procedures, through the way the university operates on the markets and so the fact that the website is ‑‑ is inclusive for students with some disabilities, for older generations, we offer that as well. We try to offer all types of sustainable solutions through the university. So like free water dispensers, which promote sustainable ‑‑ sustainable behavior.
We promote coming to the university by the bike. So it's maybe not digital, but it still promotes the ‑‑ it promotes how to behave sustainable in every day actions, because this is really what we are talking about. We are talking about full transition. So we have to believe it from the roots and the university's role in that is really important.
Thank you.
>> KAROL MUZ: Thank you, Marta for your statements and believe it or not, I like your university even more. And I have noticed that Claire has raised a hand and Peter has raised a hand. So ladies first, Claire. I ‑‑ I give you a voice.
>> CLAIRE SCHARWATT: Thank you. I will be brief. I just wanted to follow‑up quickly on the point that was made before the last mile delivery, because I think it's ‑‑ it's a very important aspect, and one where businesses can have a very key role to play. So there as a mention of electric vans and cargo bikes and all of this is great. We are definitely using them in many different cities across Europe and across the world.
I just wanted to add that we are also experimenting with on‑foot deliveries. So we are working with walkers to deliver. This is obviously zero emissions in different cities. So just to say there's a lot we can do to be creative and that's probably something that wouldn't apply to all of us in our different roles if you want to address the challenges of sustainable consumption.
>> KAROL MUZ: Thank you very much, Claire. And Peter don't think that you are forgotten. You were supposed to speak. So I think you are the last speaker in this session. So it is your privilege to be brief and please, say what you want to say as the last one.
>> PETER ANDREWS: Thank you very much. Very useful discussion so far. However, I think we have missed an important topic and that is that as low and middle‑income companies are engaging with the impact. We have to look at the opportunity to make this much more ‑‑ makes sustainability much more accessible and affordable tool, not just people in wealthy nations.
So developing companies, can help provide a leap frogging effect in modern, efficient value chain by aggregating consumer change. If we take the food system as an example, it's very complex, highly fragmented, and especially in the developing countries and dozens of stakeholders and transactions to bring food from farmers to consumers. And each step there are these transaction costs that are incurred by all of the business partners.
Now eCommerce platforms can connect consumers and producers more directly that will reduce the costs for consumers and therefore, make it a much more greater opportunity for them as well as reducing the environmental impact by making transport more efficient and promoting local food systems.
There's a great example. So Pinduoduo is a Chinese eCommerce platform that connects farmer was with 850,000 users. They are able to form teams to make purchases and giving farmers more visibility and assurance that they can move large quantities of produce in a short period of time. Now technology is used to forecast this, as well as aggregate that demand to ensure the optimal supply route and the model is able to reduce the carbon footprint by 40% by having a product go more directly from farmer to consumer. We need to be aware that eCommerce can bring the great opportunities to all countries, to all consumers wherever they are. There's a really important thing that, again, that I think we need to bring through that eCommerce is providing access to people, that may not have had direct access before to sustainable products, as well as products that will support their general well‑being. There are big challenges that we all need to overcome and the many actors that are needed to drive that forward. Thank you.
>> KAROL MUZ: Thank you very much, Peter. It was a very great closing speech because now we are closing our session, and I will give the voice to Martyna who will do the closing speech, but from the moderator's side.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK-NOIRJEAN: I think it was a great discussion. I will try to share a summary that we have ‑‑ let me see if I can do it. Okay. If I may be able to do it. I wanted to share a slide that I prepared with the summary with threats and opportunities. I hope you can see it.
So it's true that ‑‑ I mean, we have ‑‑ wrong ‑‑ I will just it at this.
So it's true that we have ‑‑ it was a really nice discussion and we have threats and opportunities. We didn't have a time to look at this more globally and to look into the ‑‑ the ‑‑ perhaps a little bit more difficult situation or a little bit different types of problems that developing countries are experiencing in that aspect and, you know, we have here representatives of really all over the globe at the Internet governance forum. Thank you for bringing that up here.
We have tried to talk about the digital sovereignty of consumers online and I think we managed to talk about this in terms of how consumers behavior and how they make their choices. It was ‑‑ it was Marta who made some really nice points on this.
And there is lots of different issues that still need to be discussed here, and it's obviously a huge, huge topic. I really like also the point Nils made and Agustin made, and I think everybody here we agree that we need to take the matter in our hands to address the threats, to ‑‑ to make use of the opportunities, because it's up to us. And we made a quick round of ‑‑ it's up to us to make ‑‑ to support all actors, whether it is our consumers, platforms, or businesses, to make consumption more sustainable, and ‑‑ and we made a quick round on how we should all act, how different actors should act and what should be the role of the policymakers and enforcers which will be the role of marketplaces and I'm pretty sure, we'll all have a little bit more ‑‑ this discussion helped to have these points a little bit more emphasized for each and every one of us.
So I think for the last round, as we are running out of time. I would like to give everybody one more time the stage, just to say, perhaps your last piece of advice from your perspective on ‑‑ you can share the one good practice, for example, that you think we could ‑‑ that would be the takeaway from today's session on how to make consumption in the eCommerce environment more sustainable and perhaps I will start with Nils.
>> NILS BEHRNDT: Well, thanks, Martyna. It's a difficult one just one point. But I would say let's say, look out for what information source you trust. That's what I would suggest.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK-NOIRJEAN: Thanks a lot. That was nice and brief and it stay in our mind. Agustin.
>> AGUSTIN REYNA: Indeed, a difficult question. I will go one step before, and I think that first of all, we need to have a common understanding about what is the problem. Where is the problem? What are the practices that are related to eCommerce that are most problematic in order to be able to define the appropriate solutions and so I think that even if we see the negative effects of ‑‑ of our consumption online, we still, I think, need to really define and name down, what are the specific problems we need to tackle. So I think that's going to be my ‑‑ yeah. My final word. Thank you.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK-NOIRJEAN: Thanks a lot. Maybe our panelists here on site. Marta?
>> MARTA GRYBS-KABOCIK: Sure. So I would say, educate. Be curious and you can educate online and our university because we have different programs for different stakeholders. You can join our executive education about sustainability leader. So just educate so you know the sources of information that are trustful. Thank you.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK-NOIRJEAN: Maciej.
>> MACIEJ CZAPLINSKI: Yes, I will continue. Get as much information on the products and the firms that you can before buying. And also remember that there's always an option of not buying, which might be better in certain situations.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK-NOIRJEAN: Okay. Then I will return to the last two panelists online, before I also pose the question to the audience, because we should still have a few more minutes for that. Go ahead, Peter.
>> PETER ANDREWS: Thank you. I will echo what everyone has said. I think also, one the things that we can do to build a more sustainable marketplace for everyone, is to make sure that the marketplace is regulated from ‑‑ in the most effective way. And that ‑‑ to get to that point, we need to policy making that is done in consultation with businesses, with civil society, and importantly, with consumer organizations and other concerned groups to make sure that the marketplace is consumer‑centric and sustainable and provides safe products as well for consumers going forward.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK-NOIRJEAN: Thanks. A lot Claire go ahead.
>> CLAIRE SCHARWATT: Well, my advice I think would be to think big and be creative, which has already been mentioned and specifically for any company if you are ready to do that, I would really encourage you to join the climate plat so we can work together. There are over 200 signatories and I'm talking about businesses more and large, and I think we're all together in this. So really come and join us. Perhaps the last word for the audience and the other panelists here, I was not able to address all the topics that we discussed. It was a lot. It was a very interesting discussion. So thank you for that. Don't hesitate to reach out. I'm happy to answer any remaining questions offline, obviously. I know we are running short on time. Thank you.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK-NOIRJEAN: Thank you very much and I also liked this discussion. And so perhaps the audience would like to share something.
Go ahead?
>> PARTICIPANT: Thank you. I would agree with Peter. In ‑‑ in our industry, many responsibilities, where the public, the consumer is responsible, the platform is responsible, the producer is responsible. So if someone behaves irresponsibly, then it means there needs to be some enforcement on that. We need to create awareness, as well as we have to enforce it. That's way would like to say.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK-NOIRJEAN: That's true. And I think the one final conclusion we can make is that we need to take matters in our hands, all of us, different actors and we need to act. We need to be reflective and just ‑‑ just do our best. Think a little bit about what we are doing and why we are doing this and what is our goal. Think about our values as I think one of the panelists has mentioned in the beginning and just see how we go ahead with our consumptionist habits and how to make it sustainable.
I think we are perfectly now on time, Karol, would you like to say anything?
>> KAROL MUZ: Two words, I really like the message that Nils said. Look out for information you trust, and I ensure you that it could be Twitter message we could consider to publish in a few hours. Thank you very much for your attention and all the panelists, Martyna and all the guests here, and outside. Thank you.
>> MARTYNA DERSZNIAK-NOIRJEAN: Thanks very much, and thanks for participating, everybody here and online. It was really a pleasure and I think it was an excellent panel. Thanks a lot. See you soon sometime, hopefully physically.