The following are the outputs of the captioning taken during an IGF intervention. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.
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>> VLADMIR GARAY: For the people in the Zoom channel, we're just waiting for eight minutes, and then we're going to start. And this is going to ‑‑ we're going to finish at 10:00 like it's scheduled.
Thank you so much for joining us. So, yeah.
Well, good morning, everyone. I am Vladmir Garay, from Derechos Digitales, and this session is called The Internet WE Want: Perspectives from the Amazonian Region, and it takes a starting report, a report called Latin American: A Glimpse in Amazonian that we published a couple of months ago. It's a joint a research effort coordinated by Derechos Digitales with studies conducted by different Latin American organizations in the region. From the (?) and EDIC from Brazil.
We are lucky enough to be here with Camilla Laten from EDIC to tell us a little bit about the research conducted in Brazil, and we also have Carlos Baca from (?) one of the most renowned organizations regarding alternate communication infrastructure. So, we're going happy to be with them.
Come on, please. Don't be shy. It's really early, so people is registering. They're probably going to be here, but we have to start.
And as I was saying, like, we are very lucky to have Camilla and Carlos here, but most of the organizations that did the research couldn't be here, but we wanted them to be part of this anyway, so we have prepared small video with them talking about the work that they did.
So, maybe we can do this and wait for more people to come.
Thank you.
[video: Good morning. It's a pleasure to participate in this session via video, and a shame that I cannot join you in person in Japan. My name is Danielle Viapilos, a researcher for the center of justice of law. A think and do tank based in Columbia that works to strengthen the rule of law and promote human rights in the Global South with a particular emphasis in Latin American.
I would like to share with you some of the key findings of a research that I did last year. This research was recently published by the Digitales and can be found on their website under the title Internet access of indigenous peoples in the Columbian Amazon.
I am particularly interested in how indigenous communities interact with the Internet, what devices they use, what platforms they use, and if having Internet access impacts on their indigenous identity.
Two of the main findings. First, indigenous peoples are very interested in having Internet access. They see Internet as a way to fulfill some of their human rights, and as a way to access services that currently they don't have access to.
For instance, health care. Accessing health care is very difficult in Columbia and Amazon, because the nearest hospital might be four, five, six hours away. Granting Internet access would allow them to connect with a doctor online.
They also think that Internet access would promote the education and the way they participate in state issues; on the other hand, however, some of the indigenous leaders see in Internet access a threat. They do not claim has the Internet should be promoted in the Amazon, however, they claim on the other hand that although Internet access should be promoted, it should also be promoted some strategies to construct ‑‑ to strengthen the indigenous identity because having Internet access might threaten their identity as kids would start ‑‑ would be in contact with something that is not theirs. Although they see the threat, they still consider that with adequate strengthening mechanisms, Internet access would promote their rights.
These recommendations, on the one hand, that they are interested in having Internet access, and on the other, to have them and not have a negative impact, their identity should be strength must be taken into account by policymakers in Columbia.
Thank you very much.
>> Hello, I'm (?) from Bolivia and organization that works to defend and promote human rights on the Internet. Together, we developed a research in (?). During the compilation of this work we approached some realities that (?). Despite the lands, most of the countries originally is part of the Amazon ecosystem. So, to say it is (?). In this contest, we are happy to share with you (?) for more research that was done during post‑COVID pandemic which represent a radical change in digitalization presence in the Country. Our findings are: First, organizations in the Amazon are very active based in the states. For example, to negotiate access to services from the state, indigenous organization cover communities to travel to Government offices.
Second finding, the implementation of the digital education policy was not possible because the Internet (?) and the equipment was not enough. Thus, it is the same agency that is exercising by the Civil Society for access to services has allowed them to develop (?) around Internet serving their demands and needs.
The research together that despite the gaps in Internet access, which are a reflection of the inequalities, the (?) have been identified on the Internet as base to the economic relationships, self-expression, and identity construct sure. In each of them such as this (?) establishment of this decision making our organization groups as well as defense in a disaster in dangers are some examples of the construction of other communication processes and the worries of (?) alternative towards the world from the local (?).
Finally, we invite you to learn more about our research that high lies the diversity of the region.
Thank you very much for hearing us.
>> Hello. How are you doing? I would love to be there in person, but I could not do it so far. So, I hope this video can help you. My name is mart Tina with Fundameo, an Ecuador Ian Civil Society organization that promotes freedom of expression and access to information.
From the latest research, Internet access in Bastas. The largest Amazon progress in Ecuador and home of seven Internet groups. We started Internet access from three indigenous nationalities, which are the most numerous in that province.
We selected two populations with different access roads, which of course better the extension of electricity and Internet services.
Despite the province of Pastas being the largest Ecuador, it is one of the regions with the least infrastructure for Internet.
41% of those survive only have access to satellite Internet as they live in towns that do not have permanent electricity. 40% access the Internet via cable, and 10% have mobile connections. Prior initiatives with high prices are for some the only way to connect.
Although people access services sporadically, they pay prices that are equivalent to 17% of the national based salary. On the other hand, there is a strong community sense by sharing Internet services among friends and family. In many places, teachers or medical staff provide the services to the community paid from their personal budget.
During the pandemic when schools shut down, the disparity in access to Internet was more evident and students in the Amazon jungle were left behind with no options to online education.
Despite most of the people in our study and this is the best use of Internet reality shows that where there is access to connectivity, young people tend to use social media and, of course, for gaming. Therefore, many consented adults are worried about the loss of identity among young indigenous people. There is concern about access to foreign content that leads to obliteration, since there is no content reflecting the values of their nationality. Teachers in their communities agree that the influence of social media has an impact on their culture which could lead to social problems.
Many adults in Ecuador refer to Internet as the vice, but of course in such a large extension as the province of Pastaza, Internet and social media are critical to connect families and to support communities, businesses, as well as organizing indigenous leaders and their demands.
Finally, all agree that the need of state policies are really required for the progress of the Amazon region and access to Internet services as human rights.
That is all I can tell you about our research in Ecuador and I wish you a wonderful conference.)
>> Hi everyone. This is Pamela Lacostro from Derechos Digitales. In this opportunity, I'm going to talk about research that is called Latin America (?) in (?) Amazonia, which focuses on Internet access gaps in the Amazon region. This research was conducted in collaboration with the organizations for (?) Columbia, ELIC from Brazil, and from Nacion (?). These organizations investigated not only the gaps in access, but also the risks as perceived by the indigenous communities living in the territories. For the Digitales made a report, the common points of the four investigations, they need to generate public policies of connectivity from monolithic perspective that involves the communities in every stage of the policy and the value of exploring alternative models of Internet access such as, for example, community networks.
Although there are particularities in each community, the research shows that it is possible to identify common problems, experiences and desires relating to Internet access in the communities.
For example, the research shows that the social inequality that is experienced in the region is also reflected in the access of Internet which has a huge impact on the local population. This can be seen clearly in the access and exercise of human rights such as access to health, education, public services, and freedom of expression among others.
The majority of the population is disconnected and when they do manage to connect, they find that the connection is limited, it's expensive, and it is of low quality, with the added problem about the lack of digital literacy. The result is that these groups that have been historically excluded from the access of rights not only encountered the same barriers in the access of Internet, but this inequalities are amplified with the interaction or lack of interaction of technology which generates new forms of exclusion.
The uncertain differences the communities express, a common interest and need access to the Internet as a way to access human rights and also as a way to foster community development.
From the conclusions of the reports, it can be seen clearly that technology can be an important ally for the communities, but in order for this to be possible, it is key to advance in public policies from a multicultural perspective to have an objective to achieve autonomy as part of international recognized right to self (?) of indigenous communities.
In that sense, from a significant access perspective, it's important not only to provide connectivity, but also to generate an environment that allows for indigenous communities to make full use of ICTs in order to promote the world views and expand their capability.
>> VLADIMIR GARAY: Well, thank you so much.
Again, thank you so much for you for coming to the session. We know that it's very early. We know that most of us we're really far from home. We're tired and jet lagged and the whole process of registering could be a little bit time consuming, so we're very grateful for you to be here.
What you just saw was some pre‑recorded intervention from some of the people who were in charge of the local research on this project called Latin American Amazonian, but we're lucky enough to have Camilla here from EDIC, who is going to tell us a little bit about the research in Brazil.
So, Camilla Leva, is a lawyer, specialist many indigenous rights in the institution and Professor of Digital Rights and consumer law at IDP, and Ph.D. in computer law in the University of Sao Paulo, and University of Leon.
Is that right? Go ahead, Camilla. Thank you.
>> CAMILLA: Thank you so much for that. Also, Carlos, thank you for you that are here so early in the morning, and for those who are also on with us. It's a pleasure to be here, and it's a pleasure to talk about this research and about Brazilian. Thank you Derechos Digitales that involves this project and other projects we admire you a lot.
Let me put my time in here so I don't get lost.
So, I will talk a little about Internet access in Brazil, focusing on Amazonia, and beyond talking about this research, I will also pull some inputs related to Internet access researches that we have in EDIC. We have seven researches published related to school access, 5G, related to mobile Internet, broadband, and I will talk about some of the findings while I explain more about this research. But I will focus on these main research.
First of all, let us understand the resident context of that. In Brazil, we have advanced a lot on interest net access, but we still lack meaningful connectivity. Brazil is full of contradictions and am big witness tees related to inequalities in general and Internet access is not different from that.
We have inequalities related to economic inequalities regional and inequalities in different regions of Brazil. We are focusing on the North Region today.
Also in localities, in terms of rural areas, and also depending on company's interests on these areas.
Also, we have advanced on some policies related to telecommunications, about it we still have some challenges related to the coordination of these public policies which brings challenges related to how can we promote universalization of Internet access.
It's also important to highlight that in the last few years regulation has been reduced by the previous Government. So, the goal to achieve universalization of Internet access was really harmed by these policies, but with this Government, meaningful connectivity is a priority, so we are hopeful to advance on that, and also hopeful to use a fund of universalization of Internet access prioritizing the regions that suffers the most. Especially the North Region. So, I will focus on that.
Let me talk a little about the research that digital Digitales. It focused on a region on almost 30 kilometers from capital Amazon. So, it is far away from boat, it's not that distant, but it's by boat. So, it's a place that lacks infrastructure, in general.
Let me contextualize. Before talking about the research, let me talk about the North Region in Brazil.
The North Region, the North end region is the biggest one in Brazil. It's the poorest one, too, and it occupies 40% of the Brazilian territory. It has seven states but faces lots of challenges and has lots of conflicts related to environmental and humanitarian reasons.
The Amazonian communicate it too e is very diverse and has a specific subjectivity.
Outside people have these imaginary that do not understand the complexity and the difference that is present in there, but we didn't focus on the entire Amazonian community in Brazil, which couldn't be done. It's very diverse, but we focused on this specific community.
This is a place that has approximately 300 people and we conducted this research with 40 questions related to socioeconomic background, Internet access, Internet use, and its limits and possibilities.
We interviewed 12 people of this community with difference of gender, race and ethnicity, and especially indigenous people from Baray, (?) difference of ages and also classes.
And what did we find? First of all, some structural concerns, some structural issues is that these specific community is present in a place that face challenges related to climate change. So, related to rains and also dry soil.
Because of that reason, infrastructure is hard to advance. So, because also of these natural problems, it's hard to have infrastructure in there.
Beyond that, they face challenges related to electricity. So, beyond not accessing Internet, they also -- some people don't also have electricity in general. But what did we find? We find, as we expected that this scenario excluded. We have inequalities on Internet access, high prices, low quality, and normally they use Internet access on their mobile phone. So, it's important to pause and talk about the difference in Brazil in mobile phone in relation to broadband.
Broad band is based on speed. Mobile is based on data franchise. What happens?
If you have a low cost of data franchise, you cannot buy sufficient data franchise for the entire month. So, what happens is people don't have Internet for the whole month. They don't have Internet to explore the potentialities of Internet. So, I will highlight two things related to that.
First of all, people are using the net mostly related to social media. So, people are dependent on V text, also exploration for example of privacy issues.
Second thing, EDIC conducted a research that the poorer classes in Brazil have Internet only for 21 days a month. So, for one week, at least, people don't have Internet. They don't have interest net to reach out for their family, to reach out for help, and they also don't have Internet, for example, to access health system, if they need. So, this is a big challenge.
Also related to which ‑‑ to using the cell phone instead of using a big screen apparatus. I forgot the word. Sorry.
Beyond that, Internet is a new technology for lots of these people. So, they still have to advance on Internet digital see. They have to learn to develop the Internet beyond social media.
They lack knowledge, unfortunately, and one thing that is very specific, and I would also love to talk about with you about that, and I'm talking not only about the research, but I'm also talking about the Brazilian context right now. People want to advance on Internet access, but they are willing to advance in any way.
One concern that we have right now in the Amazonian region is the dependency on Starlink. Which is related to Elon Musk. And related to Starlink, we are concerned about digital sovereignty and satellite, and how the Government didn't make a full partnership ‑‑ they made a partnership with Starlink, so it's not official. So, it's a little sketchy how Starlink is advancing, and people can be dependent just on Starlink and we can have a monopoly company.
To end about the findings of the research, three of these 12 people didn't use Internet at all, and seven of them just use it mobile Internet. So, that's why I highlighted these issues.
And five of them could afford the broadband Internet, but since they don't have sufficient infrastructure, they still face some challenges on Internet quality.
Also, another research about the North Region found out that the prices can provide 200 times per megabyte in the North Region. That is absurd. People cannot access interest net with these prices, and they don't have the same amount of quality as competitors.
How can we advance on that? This is a challenge scenario, right, and it's not the only related to Brazil. It's related to the whole region.
In relation to Brazil, we have to remember that Internet is essential service in Brazil, and we have to advance on the universalization. We have to enhance public policy related to the user funds, to the (?) of Internet access, and both the states and the cities have to collaborate also with that.
Also, we have some alternatives beyond depending on the big companies, we can also think about community networks. And I would love to hear talking more about that.
So, that is the scenario we hope we can advance on that, but having this data can help us talk with the Government and find solutions on all of that.
So, thank you for the opportunity.
>> VLADIMIR GARAY: Thank you, Camilla, for joining us today. Thank you for all of us has come to a session. We know it is already.
Also, thank you to all the people that is following this session on Zoom and YouTube. It's late in Latin America where most of them are, so we really appreciate the effort.
And right, as you said, there's a big challenge that has to do with how to advance with universal access and meaningful access. That's why I think it's very interesting to have Carlos here today to tell us a little about those alternatives, like this big companies that Elon Musk satellites and all that.
So, I'm going to pass the word to Carlos. Carlos Baca, he has a Ph.D. and Master's degree from the Autonomous University of Puebla BUAP. Sorry. And a Bachelor's Degree in Communication Sciences from Utlab. Since 2019, he's a manager of the training program in ICT Network Management in indigenous and rural communities in Latin America, and also (?) in each of (?) in ABC coordinating the capacity building area and the national schools of community networks in Asia, Africa, and Latin America.
Is that right? So, go ahead.
>> Carlos Baca: Hi. Hi, everyone. Thank you for coming. It's a pleasure to share this discussion with you. And of course, I am very thankful because you are here in this early session.
So, I want to focus not so much in the challenges that have been in place in all this report, but more like in the alternatives, we need to develop in these areas.
So, I will start with my ‑‑ with a little presentation. I want to share with you some photos and maybe you can travel a little bit to the Amazon region.
So, I will be talking about two different initiatives, very different, and how we can learn some things through these processes of developing community networks in the region.
So, the first one is the national schools of community networks. That have been developed in Brazil since 2021 and is one of these five national schools. We have other ones in Indonesia, Africa, Kenya and Nigeria, and just to say very quick that each of these schools have three different stages, one of them collective it design with the school with a lot of people you vote on that, and then the implementation of the school and the last is a grants for the organization who took part of the school.
So, one was developed by Project Saude and Alegria, and it have the place in six communities in the North of Brazil in three different states, in Nacra, Amazonia, and Paran. As Camilla said, very different communities, very different ways of living, and very, very brave (?) to each other. So, it is a challenge how to develop these there.
And I have one bad news. Because all over the process of the school was to think how the technologies can be addressed in the different context, and as a PSA is an organization that works a lot with community communication, they decide to focus a lot on community radio. But in the connectivity site, they finally started working with Provost Floesta. That is a very big initiative, with a lot of companies, a lot of organizations, some of the local and states government there involved, and they want to connect those communities in the Amazon in the next two years or so.
So, how they are doing it? We are starting. So, if you travel to there, I was there in July, and you can see all the challenge that implies to develop a backbone to the Amazon and to reach the communities and to see that the prices are very high, and also the quality of the Internet is very, very low. And also, in some communities, they don't have electricity, so it is also a problem. One of the communities of the school that calls (?), they only have electricity for three hours in a day, because they use diesel for energy, so they don't have electricity all day. So, they can't use also Internet and everything all day. No. So, they did that.
And in the other hand, we have another project that is called Hermes, and it is a project that have took place since 2015, when we started to think and develop technology that can allow the use of a high frequency tool (?) some of that data is important in the community. You know, maybe the Internet is not only the only way to connect communities and to face all the challenge that implies ‑‑ you know, you say that education, access to health services, access to Government services, et cetera, we can do that also through other technologies. So, we develop Hermes. That is technology that allows some type of data through these types of networks.
So, we have now different services. We can send an Email. We can send a public message between the community station, like close network, so we can connect to the Internet. One of the radio base, and so we can send a message to Internet through one, only one, radio base connected.
And we have these two apps. One of them is the administration and you can also get a (?), you can search things in one of these, and the other one is a message app.
And we have developed this into two main territories in the Amazon. On the one hand in Rondonia, Brazil, and the other one is ‑‑ with a chart nation in Ecuador.
So, so far, we have these two systems working, but we are work also, for example, in Chihuahua, Mexico, very mountain area, very difficult to connect to, and this type of technology is used for these areas.
So, very quick, what are the lessons we learned in the Amazon? And actually, match a lot in what we have learned in the community networks movement, in general. So, one of the lesson and one of the most important lesson is that a local (?) solutions are more sustainable because they have (?) with the community's way of life. And they address the real needs of the communities.
They live in environments and between different stakeholders is necessary, no. We don't ‑‑ we can't have these type of projects alone. We can't have a very good synergies with other type of stakeholders, including the Government, including different organization, and in some cases also big companies, big operators. The choice of technologies to be moved must be always respond to the context and is digitory.
I share with you two different technologies, only in these two cases, but we have many, many other options. So, it is important to make a good process of selection of technologies, because they're a key to the needs and to face the challenge in different territories.
And as we saw in the Amazon school of community networks, the link to (?) and a community network, it's key. It's very key. Because important thing of the network is not the network itself. It's the things that travel through these networks. So, it's important to make a good effort in the creation ‑‑ content creation.
And finally, capacity building is key, and digital literacy is key. But not to ‑‑ only to focus on the tools or to focus in how to use the Internet, but more like how we can have a different critical thinking of the technologies and then how they can be used for the purpose of the communities and to address the needs, et cetera.
Just to finish, want to invite you all to see more about these (?). On the one hand, the community network in the repository, they have one information about the schools, and you can also see a lot of materials there, and also share a lot of materials there, we will make it self‑collaborative space, and if you want to learn more about Hermes you can go through the website.
Thank you very much.
[applause]
>> VLADIMIR GARAY: Thank you, Carlos. That was really, really interesting.
So, this is the part where we can talk. And we don't have much time, but we have some time to have a conversation, and I want to invite everyone who, if you have a question or a comment that you want to make, please do.
Also, if you go in the Zoom channel and in the YouTube channel, you can participate, too. We will try to address your comments and questions.
And I want to start. I want to give maybe, like, half step back in the conversation and talk about a little bit about because this session is called the Internet WE Want with an emphasis on the word “WE.”
So, I this I that the key concept here has to do with autonomy, and this is something that you, in both of your interventions, I want to ask you a little bit about the important tanks of autonomy regarding Internet connections, basically when we're talking about business specific communities, indigenous communities that has a right to decide. But like how does autonomy look like when we're talking? Carlos gave some clues in his presentation, but I would really like you to give words of the importance of autonomy when we talk about access.
>> Carlos Baca: So, yes, I think that the autonomy is the key to when we talk about the future of the (?) we want. Because you know, these communities have the opportunity to think of the technologies, and why they can't manage to a ‑‑ you know, to draw the type of (?) to have. But in this process, capacity building is key. We think that the technology fees need to be included in our different types of life and different territories. We need to depart from very good critical thinking of the technologies in which the communities can decide. The autonomy is not like a place where we can go and travel to and we have very happy place, but before that, a process in which we all have the possibility to decide how we can address our problems and how we can go follow our dreams, no. So, if we understand that, the technologies are very helpful for the communities, not only with departed from this understanding of the risk of the possibilities of all the contexts that are involved in the technologies, and then to take decisions that help to solve the needs and follow their dreams in each of the communities.
>> VLADIMIR GARAY: I think in your intervention you said something that was very important that has to do with like how to develop a critical approach regarding the Internet and connectivity on the road that connectivity as in our lives. I think that is a challenge that doesn't stop with ‑‑ it's not just this community, it's all of us all the time. Like, how do we think about different ways to connect and the reasons why we connect. That is not an easy task.
I'm kind of curious your experience in the schools, especially. Like, what ‑‑ how is the ‑‑ when people think about connectivity, what are they thinking? What does that look like? Why do they want to achieve with connectivity? What do they want to achieve?
>> Carlos Baca: The experience with the development of the schools is very, very inspiring and interesting, because we can see all the difference perspective of connectivity of what we understand about a meaningful access, for example. So, each of the five schools are very different, completely different, no. For example, we have here in Brazil, one school that have been work a lot on the content production and content communication, but we have another school that is very (?) and more in technical issues into Africa.
Another one who decided to implement some digital technologies in some communities with a fisherman and a woman who take care of the dream funds. So, we need to understand that the Internet is not one, no.
I remember in Berlin; we had a very big discussion about say one Internet for all or ‑‑ something like that; no. And I think there is some (?) in Mexico, they say that [speaking non‑English language] it is like we want a world in which we can have a lot of words, no. So, we go on Internet on which we can have a lot of Internet. Not only one way to connect.
>> VLADIMIR GARAY: I think there is a question or a comment from the public. Maybe this time.
>> AUDIENCE: Hi. My name is (?) I'm from the youth program in Brazil. I live in the state of Harmoni, that is why this is very important to me. Having told there is zero of them. I believe in the potential of the discretion to be held and the IGF.
My question is what are the possibilities of (?) using technology naturally to (?) US and (?) like Elon Musk with the domination work with the Amazon Ian people. Sorry my English.
Thank you.
>> VLADIMIR GARAY: Thank you
>> AUDIENCE: My name is Paul from Brazil. Sorry, I couldn't listen to Camilla's presentation. I listened to Carlos one. I'm really glad you mentioned the project.
My question goes to everyone, actually, including for discussion. We all know that working with community networks and access, connectivity and so on is hard to do in terms of hardware, software, knowledge and so on, but then people normally connect the idea of connectivity and access to the Internet, to access the Internet, and the (?) for example is another project, is another idea. Connecting more of the digital sphere than the Internet itself.
So, my question would be what is the importance of having not necessarily the Internet, but the digital technology in the hands of community given two different axis, two different things. One, culturally, and the other one is material production, because digital technologies can help out not necessarily with access, but what the communities are producing and so on, and also the production of culture. Like music, oral history, poetry and so on. This not necessarily has to do with Internet connection, but it has a lot to do with digital technology flowing in and out from the communities with the sovereignty and autonomy, so thanks a lot.
>> AUDIENCE: Hi, my name is Neil, in this case from DW academy. My question is to Camilla.
What can you share about the dreams from if community you visited, because you were told that people are very attached to social media, but what are their alternatives and what are the needs they dream of or what they can do in that territory with more Internet? Thanks.
>> AUDIENCE: Thank you. My name is Camil from Bolivia. I only want a question. I have a question. I would like to know how did you address, as you work with indigenous communities, how do you ‑‑ how do you address about the identity of things, because there is this question about having the Internet, the development and everything, you know, but as I work with indigenous communities, too, I know they also think about they don't have maybe some information about their culture on the Internet and so they want to have the Internet, but also they want to support. What did you experience with that with this kind of schools or things? How do you work with the identity and how to combine these rights, like the digital access, but also the rules there and identity?
Thank you.
>> VLADIMIR GARAY: Who wants to go first?
>> Carlos: Camilla, it's your turn first.
>> Camilla: First, the question about the community. One of the reaction is no one asked us how Internet should look like. No one prepared us to use that, so the meeting is also have more connectivity, but also more understanding on how can they use the Internet. This is very interesting. But we have a challenge of autonomy and how do they choose, because it's easy to have one big company that brings all the solutions as Starlink, but people don't have knowledge enough to think about alternatives, such as networks communities. So, it's important to develop digital literacy so they can have the autonomy to choose what kind of Internet they want. I think this is important.
But related to the culture and their context, this community in this specific in Brazil, it is really close to the capitol of Amazon is, so they have their own culture, but they are very interconnected with the big centers. So, when they are using Internet, they use more to expend, to lower the distance and to expand to other spaces and their culture is more developed, but yes, they face some challenges on how to keep their culture.
And about (?) question. It's a big challenge, right, because it's so seductive to have a company that says, you will have Internet in the long‑term, but I cannot guarantee that they are not going to be (?) to me, like really dependent to me. I cannot say about the prices in the future. I cannot talk about the environmental issues. So, we have to think some alternatives.
We will talking about the right to decide autonomy, and we have to have more spaces to hear people in the end when they're making public policies, they don't hear Civil Society that much, and they don't hear that much the communities that are affected.
I can talk about Civil Society in general, we face lots of challenges on participating for the community for the universal funding for Brazil. We have to ask them a specific authorization to participate on that. The telecommunications authority. This e have public consultations, but they have in the long‑term they have some challenges that the telecommunication agency is very close to their Private Sector, but we have some participation space, such as the (?), we have the consumer committee also, and in part of EDIC, we try to participate notice actively in space to provide other perspectives, but beyond Civil Society other than talking about homogeneous problems, we have to hear all the people in the end.
>> Carlos Baca: I think we can have all these questions with a secular up here, but it's very difficult to try to give absolute answer; no.
One thing that I think is important is to the part that as we have the right to be connected, we also have the right to be disconnected, and this is very important. We want to see some discretion about it. We have a (?) in the aside, because we also think that we need to have this right very good understanding, no, that we can have this right to be disconnected.
And so, on the ‑‑ this is on the one hand.
On the other hand, these technologies help a lot to maintain the identity and to (?) the identity in the communities. We have seen in a lot of communities that we have this problem between the young and the old people, because they are disclosing a lot how is the best way to address these technologies, and how we need to include in their lives. So, it is important to start to generate that dialogue before to include the technology. I think this is one of the (?).
And also, between the digital (?) they have a lot of knowledge on what are doing all their communities; no. So, they look over the experience a lot in their territories and outside of territories, and they can start thinking how to use these tools to reinforce the identity; no.
Of course, we can't think that it is a white or black process, no. They understand that they want to be connected. They understand also that they want to be connected with some limits that, for example in a community network we can have, no. We can limit the type of the network operating, for example, no. So, some communities decide that after 8:00 p.m., they don't have Internet connection, for example.
Or you do more than two hours, you can't connect more; no. So, I think we understand that. There is not only one solution. A lot of these solutions have a lot of risk, no. Of course. To be connected with some Guy who can decide to turnoff this, and no one say you can't have Internet because I had a rough day, it is a problem; no. It is also a solution that need to be understanded by the community. So, if the communities understand this risk and can ‑‑ how can manage it, this is the key, I think.
>> VLADIMIR GARAY: Well, thank you so much, both of you.
Thank you so much for all the questions. We're running out of time.
I just want to say that I think in the end what's important is to think about why do we need the Internet? What do we need connectivity? What do we want to achieve with that? And as Carlos said, there is no single answer to that question. There are many answers, and the check that connectivity takes has to do with how we answered that specific question. But as I say, we're running out of time. Sorry.
I just want to give both of you one minute for final remarks, but before that, I would love to say thanks to, well, everyone, everyone for coming here, and for doing the online moderation. As Carlos said, there is a lot of questions that we can keep on discussing with Sake or beer or just water maybe at this time of day. So, let's keep talking.
One minute each of you.
>> Camilla: Thank you so much for the invitation. I would also like to thank (?) which leads the telecommunication part in EDIC. He has amazing work and I learn a lot with him. He also helped me a lot with this research and this presentation, too. Hope we can continue this dialog. We have a consensus that no size fits all, so we have to think how can we advance on that? Where are the specificity tees where we can develop. Thank you information the invitation and thank you for the exchange and thank you for being here.
>> Carlos Baca: Thank you for having me. We need to know that there is other options to connect and to have access to telecommunication services. So, we need to depart from that, and between that and different stakeholders.
So, thank you very much, and have a great IGF.
>> VLADIMIR GARAY: Have a great IGF. Thanks so much for coming. On your way out, please take one of these. If you unfold it, it has a really good poster that you can, I don't know, do something with it. The other way around. Okay. So, it's there. Please take one.
Thank you so much for coming and hope to keep on talking regarding all this stuff. Thank you for all the technical team, too. Thanks so much.
[applause]