The following are the outputs of the captioning taken during an IGF intervention. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.
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ladies and gentlemen, welcome to today's session. Good afternoon. Everyone. Very warm welcome to the session. How to build trust in usingcentric digital public services. We're happy that you're joining us here today for this day zero yeast to Kekuewa off the internet governance forum 2023.
>> SASHA NIES: For all those people joining us, please come in find a seat. My name is Christopher Newman.
>> CHRISTOPHER NEWAN: I'm an Advisor at the German agency for international cooperation. GIZ. Working in the field of digital governance and I will be your hon site moderator today. Brief note on housekeeping what we plan to cover in the next hour or so*. Sit session is being held hybrid format. Roundtable discussion followed by open question and answer session. After hearing from our panelists, two of whom are here at the top of the table, two of whole are joining us virtually encourage audience all you have here in this room and all of those joining from around the world, to get involved in the discussion. For all participants joining us by Zoom, please keep your microphones muted for the duration of the session. I believe your microphones are automatically muted so that makes things easier. And you are encouraged to post questions to our panelists in the chat at any time. So if you have a question, burning, to get off your chest, please feel free to post in in the chat. We'll pick it up in the Q&A. * this session is organized by the German Federal Ministry for digital and transport together with GIZ. German ministry for Federal Ministry digital transport engages in digital dialogue with several partner countries around the world to shape better framework for digital transformation of Governments economies and societies. Multi‑stakeholder initiative, digital dialogue provide platform for direct exchange between policymakers, regulators businesses and civil ser society. Goal of this session here today is to share * lessons an I am pleltding trustworthy and implementing trustworthy user‑centric digital public service add explore the role the data Government ANSI and AI building trust. We jump over. Hand it over to our speaker. Few word was we're going to talk about today. Today's digital era citizens increasingly expect Government services to be convenient and easily accessible across champs de‑‑ channels platforms. Potential to meet citizens demands and be more responsive improve service delivery and transform house citizens are engaging with their Governments. Underpinning success of these new digital public services is the aspect of trust. Citizens must feel confident their personal data is handled responsibly and that the digital public services are reliable and secure. This then in turn Reyes important questions around raises important questions what data Government frameworks must be put in place. Drive the adoption of service through user‑centric design, and how AI can be leveraged responsibly to unlock possibilities for automation and personalization in a bay that boosts efficiency while also maintaining trust. Any a way. Help unpack * some of these complex issues, we have a panel of four esteemed speakers with a wealth of experience on this topic. Representing four different country perspectives. I would like to introduce them to you. First off, here in the room, we have Dr. Rudolf Gridle, Director General of the central department at the German Federal Ministry for digital and transport. In this role, he is responsible for advancing the digitalisation in his administration. His ministry also coordinatings across the Government on jirnl digital and data strategies. Headed department of international digital policy German Federal Ministry for economic affairs and energy. * next, moving to the online world, we are happy to have joining us virtually from KIEV Valeriya Ionan. Deputy Minister at the ministry of digital transformation in Ukraine. Where she Yovanovitch sees Ukraine national ‑‑ oversees Ukraine digital literacy proaght development and growth of SMRE, digital information and zero integration and international relations. Back in this room, we have Dr. Luanna Roncaratti, I hope I pronounced that okay, serves deputy secretary of digital it will* Government prays I willian ministry ‑‑ Brazilian ministry of management and innovative public service. Coordinating digital transformation of federal administration and developing Brazil's national strategy of digital Government, in cooperation with states and immune is payments. Last but ‑‑ municipalities. Online, joining us Gautham Ravichander head of the strategy at the E govern foundation in India. Over the past 20 years, EGOV foundation has developed implemented * digital solution for city and state administrations across India to develop accessible affordable around schu inclusive E service. Previously led EGOV policy initiatives are the Government of the inned Extra and partner states. ‑‑ India and partner states. Welcome to you all. Without further ado. Jump straight into our discussion. We will start off with a lightening round and I would like to* ask each participant to briefly one minute or so share your thoughts on the following question. With what do you see as the biggest challenge in building trust in digital Government? Please, stick to the time allotted so you don't have rude and can you cut you Out of. Start wither ‑‑ cut you Out of. We'll start with GAUTHAM. Floor is yours. Gautham what I'm saying is Sim. Has to work reliably on time, transparent on time. Not experience many people in the many parts of world. Not just citizens who feed see this work. Government leaders and Government officials need to see this work. Have to believe these systems work. Transparency, deliver services deliver benefits an make life easier for everyone involved*. Do not impinge on sovereignty. Not initiate, much in the developing world. Other element much of the world is not really going to be to Government. What we have digital Government. Physical and damage. Need humans in the loom. And digital. People work with citizens on the ground because they have trust face‑to‑face and to the world. I think this is going to be important. Make sure that seamless experience of digital Government is something that everybody experiences*. For trust to start building. The.
>> CHRISTOPHER NEWAN: Thank you very much. Figi tax L heard phone. FIGITAL physical and damage tail. What do you see as the biggest challenge in building trust in digital Government?
thank you. From my side, much in the same direction. I think the services have to be user‑friendly. And reliable at the same time. This is sometimes a challenge. The more we get into user‑friendliness and customer experience, the less sometimes we have to we are able to respected data protection and security issues. So that there has to be a tradeoff. For the people to first of all use these services at the have to work. Have to be convene. They have to be ‑‑ convenient and in place every time. Everywhere. And there is something that we are subpoenaing in Germany. ‑‑ experiencing in Germany. Not the case, you can build a very secure and very data protective framework. People won't use it. So I think that is the most important challenge and my minute is over.
>> CHRISTOPHER NEWAN: Thank you very much Dr. GRILD. Over to you. Value.
>> VALERIYA IONAN: What is trust? What does it mean to trust and when trust happens by defaulted. Can it really happen by default*. I think you will agree with me complex question for just one minute. Please don't be rude to me. Probably I will need 30 seconds more. However, I like one of the definitions that trust is confidence in the appropriateness of actions of a certain stakeholder. Without a need of actualizing such confidence on a regular basis. This is definition to my mind, leads to very important conclusion. Institutional trust is very important. Secondly, therefore, one of the basic requirements of trust is security. Thirdly, when it comes to digital Government, sometimes there might be no correlation between electronics transparency and trust in Government. So what to do about it? I think we have a lot to discuss during today's session. Thank you.
>> CHRISTOPHER NEWAN: Thank you very much. Thank you for sticking to the time. As well. Finally, to round us off in the lightning round. Luana. Luanna Luanna good afternoon ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for having me. I'm directly to the point.
>> LUANNA RONCARATTI: We believe that one of the biggest challenges that we have the* siloed and fragmented model providing is public service. Impacts the way how such delivery is done today. It comes from the traditional bureaucratic model that used to be defined by the way Government is organized and the way people deserve and demand public services. Investing centralized tools and platforms trying to advance whole of the Government approach and been discussing and defining and providing tools such as portal, GOV, national digital ID,er hundreds of millions people that already have the account. Digital signature and mainly, also, that we have a lot to do, a lot of work ahead of us to do that IT platform and integrate thousands of citizens. Finished my time.
>>ISABEL: Thank you very much. What do we take away from the lightning round? We heard definition of trust and complexity of what does it even mean to have trust in these digital public services. We heard the issue of path dependence how public services were provided in past. Fragment Asian an silo that make it difficult to shift to digital mindset. Fragmentation. Output legitimacy it has to work each of us as citizens of respective jurisdictions. Have experienced that, feels good when things work*. Let us into dive into more depth. Hear perspectives from the panelists few different aspects of this, of trust and digital public services. Starting with you, India has created tech stack for entire country of 1.4 billion people, and your organization supports Governments and building platforms for better service delivery. What have you learned from working with digitalisation with various levels of Government in India, and what factors matter most in fostering trust between Governments and citizens?
>> GAUTHAM RAVICHANDER: Sure. Thanks for that question. I think I'm going to go back recap my previous answer. Not software alone. It's the Government and whole process of delivering services an benefits to citizens. For this, we have to really focus on capacity. Capacity is mean many things. Front line, employees get information they need. And they are able to tasks they have to do in a timely manner. Administrators can manage their resources. Human financial, and performance of these to address issues that they're coming up with. I i deally speaking be able to spot things before they happen. Policymakers should be able to track progress on those and systems greater confidence policy as intended is actually going to translate into execution on the ground. Somewhere in the midst of all of this, need someone to able deploy and manage systems. Now, on this I will say that when those capacities for technology, maintenance endowment, that can be contracted and partnered with. Cannot get away from the capacity needs that feed levels administrator level it's and policymakers levels. Focusing on building capacity especially at the local Government level, going to be important. Because that is interface with the human beings and Government itself. Second thing really comes down to focus on making and keeping promises. Promise that I will deliver X service. Could be something as simple as applying for a license or running a shop. And I will get it to him in time and happen without any issues. Certain amount of quality. All levels that I described in the previous part have to align to make this happen. When we are defining these timelines, defining these promises Governments to citizens, he have we have to ensure they are promises can be kept. Realistic. No point promising a road will get fixed overnight if the local Government does not have the financial manpower, resources and manpower to make sure those things can happen. This also needs to paired with the need of transparency. So as a citizen can you see request you made, where it is sitting? Delayed? Escalade? Request escalations? Able to get into the details what is happening out having to walk into a Government office? That actually is important. More than just a timeliness. Transparency so I know where my clients are being processed, what is going on with my application? Goes a long way to increasing trust. Otherwise, typically, all used to a nonfunctional system looking at sites that say, it's in process. And that's it. Don't know anything else. Don't know how long it will take. So focus on getting more information to citizens. Comes back to focusing on security and privacy. Always a lot of conversation about technology and matters things like privacy by design. A lot of the comes from performance. Field engineering servicing connection request does not need to know every single piece of information about the person made that request. Just needs to know the information to perform their function. Educating them and providing that information if think way they did service to the Zen, citizen, back end various piece of information that are required to provide. * verifying identity, collecting your payments, possibly even verifying property. Can be done digitally bout having to constantly rely on human beings in the files. * does this mean? Doesn't mean sent files. You can query systems to families, hey, I Gautham Ravichander. Live in place six. Verify and go back and say, says who he says he is. Stays at the place. Provide him that connection. In that way, certain mat automatically start building in by performing processes minimizing data into work flows. Thank you.*
>> RUDOLF GRIDL: Very important fundamental points you raise there.
>> CHRISTOPHER NEWAN: Returning here to the physical aspect. Of the figital space. Germany is known for being champion of data protection and data privacy*. What role do robust Government data frameworks play in building trust and public services?
it's true that we are a country of data protection huge country data protection tradition. We have even a Constitutional right for informational self‑determination created by our Constitutional court in the '80s. Very early in the process. And data protection is very dear to the heart of Germans. If you regularly to survey, amongst the Germans they will say, yeah, data protection and relation to state and companies, it's very, very high on the gender. If you look at the behavior in day‑to‑day lives, you see quite a different picture because as long as it's for the private sector, people are willing to share data and provide data to larger companies to platforms and so forth. Not so much to the State. So all the official channels are still little bit mistrusted. What do they do with my data? Play ace huge role for the acceptance of services that you can credibly argue your data is secure, and it's not only the security, it's also the data protection meaning. If we collect any data from the citizen, only collect it for purpose we are saying that we are collecting it. And we are not going to match it with, I don't know, other data files. Like we are not going to match the health record with employment record. Or things like that. So which makes things much more difficult for the administration. It will be much easier if we had all of these data file together at one place. But we do not, as you were saying, we need a transparent process and transparent administration, at the same time, do not want a trans transparent Zen that the State knows everything about. Citizen that the State knows everything about. I give you one example*. We were introducing this year a newly designed public transport ticket. That is valid for all over Germany. One ticket. Valid all over Germany. And idea was to introduce it only as a digital ticket. Only. And so great idea. Germany you have like 50 something public transport systems and nobody knows what do where. And this ticket is a huge convenience for the citizens. There was a large discussion, is it legitimate for the State do it digitally because of the data protection, because of people who do not have smartphone? Do not need necessarily a smartphone. You need only a computer. But it is one example that we had this discussion. We everyone reduced it and people get ‑‑ introduced. People get used it. Great idea. Want it to be continue. Data protection in my view, it's important. It's a principle. It's very dear to the heart
>> you have to break it down to very concrete purpose and when people see* that data data they are providing, at the end*, leads to better services and gives them a benefit in daily lives. They are more than willing to do so. But it's a struggle and second struggle I don't know if I have so much time left. No? Okay. Just we have in India so many layers of Government. Get into this in another context.
>> CHRISTOPHER NEWAN: Thank you. Whole another session. If you want to talk about federalism in Germany. Stick around. We can talk about that afterwards. Thank you investment. Now, question ‑‑ thank you very much. Question to you. Ukraine is developed app, state in a smartphone. Known as DIA DEA citizens can carry around 14 or maybe more by now digital documents * like driver's license or passport. On their phone. This to some people living in some countries is quite remarkable. How did DEA become a trusted solution used by already half the Ukrainian population?
>> VALERIYA IONAN: Thank you for the great question. Ukraine called European dodge transportation Tiger and first country in the world passports are totally equivalent to paper or plastic ones. Minister transportation in Ukraine. Newest in Government. Only four years old. Real opportunity to bring new approaches build an implement both vision and deliver complete products an services like DEA. So first of all great vision. Want to build the most convenient digital state in the world and in order to achieve that, created system digital projects. DEA five project it's. Super app used by 19.5 million user. Combined 14 digital documents. Thirty service and digital signature. So even before full scale rugs invasion to Ukraine, Akamineians have been able to pay fines or taxes through DEA. Full scale rugs invasion, able to involve new service from three days to a few weeks in order to respond to those challenges that we've seen on the market. Russian * several examples. When the Russian missiles started to hit residential areas, people started go Tricia Shelton and they did not have any access to news. That's how and why we embedded TV in the DEA app. A lot people will to rekaitlin to other regions inside the country. Created service in DEA * gave possibility to receive statues internal displaced person. Later, those people was IDP statues can receive direct social financial assistance through DEA. Now, the great example relates light to the topic of our today's session, trust, service which is called irrecovery. Possibility of on the first stage, receive a compensation from state for damaged or destroyed property. Because of full scale Russian to Ukraine. Second stage is possibility to deny your property rights online and receive a certificate for new property. Also online. This is very complex service. Not just from the technical side. But from also from the side of the trust. So this is just DEA super app one project of our DEA system. Which also includes state public services DEA, we have all of the services, majority of services digitized and we plan to have all the services digitize the anyway year. We have the fastest business registration in the world. You can register your business online in Ukraine for ten minutes. DEA CG special session Nicole and tax regime or IT industry. Development of SM E and DEA education. National entertainment led from link and digitally received. If you are building most convenient digital state in the world * people have to have at least basic level of digital skills. Opportunity to use services and benefits which state is creating for them. DEA super app basically, we had a lot of communication before launching this system and launching this app. Explaining citizens what is digital transformation and why it is important for every citizen. Count effective corruption and transparency from digital transformation every year and communicate about this to our citizens. Also we are engaging citizens into the process of development of the new services and basically, better testing of every new see service. Probably most important thing about* creating DEA a, is not just the user‑centric and humancentric product that completely changes the way how Government cooperate was citizen, also regular communication with citizens and explaining all the benefits that citizens who receive from the digital transformation.
>>ISABEL: Thank you very much. For elaborating on DEA and how it is a tool for very direct communication also. With citizens in a digs to offering them services and documents. In addition to offering them services and documents.
>> CHRISTOPHER NEWAN: I would just like to he Ro mind online audience* that chalt chat is open. Able to post your questions in there any time.* We have two more questions. Then we will be opening up to Q&A. Now over to you. Brazil digital Government emphasizes several key principles in building trust and confidence and digital public service. One of these principles that jumped out at me when reading this is citizens eccentricity. Can you see elaborate why you think is central to making digital tallet transformation of ‑‑ digital transformation of making Government a success.
Luanna citizens eccentricity, definite core value to Brazilian Government Government strategy. Elaborated based international experiences and also city recommendations.
>> LUANNA RONCARATTI: Offing easy and simple way for people to interact with Government and providing high quality digital services*. Brazil very diverse company. We need to need to different backgrounds different digital scales and this discussion is also connected to digital inclusion. And also, leaving no one behind. Very dear value to our Government. To respond properly to cities seek to be continuously hearing from the citizens. We have been conducting several user research projects, map difficulties people have. To involve our main solutions. And we have been hearing more than 3,000 people we have conducted more than 150 projects so far. Result, we have developed some initiatives. We have learned a lot about the main difficulties that people face. And those initiatives also work as platforms as well. And some of them are not technological ones. They help to ease the journey for people. For example, we have work hardly to promote user of plain r and simple ladies and gentlemen in digital tools. We learn many difficulties people face are reamed to communication and not ‑‑ related to communication and not necessarily technology goals. Designed systems helps a lot of visual communication *. Presents face‑to‑face standard so that people can have feeling of unique experience and interaction interacting with Government systems. We also launched quality lab quality model that creates standard or digital site improvement and evolution. And also we provide API for feedback, satisfaction assessment, and user research initiatives and also finally a tool that we developed caused VILIBRA. Translates Web page content to sign language. It makes more than 100,000 translations daily. In our governmental Web pages. And we are also working provide tools to provide more self‑services and personalized service and more initiatives. I think that* all these initiatives have been able to improve inclusion, accessibility, and also quality of digital services that federal Government now provides in Brazil.
>> CHRISTOPHER NEWAN: Wow. Thank you very much. We've covered a lot of ground. In this question. Round. Everything from bidding capacity, different levels of Government, to the importance of digital skills and meeting them where they are. Which is often on their smartphone in many places. While not ignoring question of inclusion. And topic of leave no one behind and accessibility and of course importance of gaining acceptance of citizenry also through clearly communicating how their data will be used when we ask for their data. As Governments. Excellent. Thank you very much. Thank you to the panelists. Before we open it up for Q&A, I hope everyone here in the room is already thinking of a question or two they can ask. We want to only have time for one per person. Final question now. Looking to the future. Connected data sets, together with advanced analytics open up new opportunities now to offer proactive digital public services. For example, based on life events. At the same time, use of AI and public administration lead the fact that citizens might find themselves confronted with decision that was made by algorithm and not a human. Now, my question to the panel, again, this time we'll go reverse order. How can trust be built and maintained in age where AI is increasingly embedded in public administration? I kindly ask you to limit your answer to two minutes per person so we can get some questions from the online and off line audience.
>> LUANNA RONCARATTI: First of all, we believe that there are some necessary actions that should be taken. That should be cortex, environment, in process, which AI is used in public administration. I would like to comment on four of them. Regarding transparency, we are convinced that users need to know when AI has been used and how it is working. And we know that this is a challenge. It's not always easy to explain and to understand how the results are Denny generated ‑‑ generated the. It is necessary that we make efforts to enhance transparency and communicate appropriately how AI is working. Secondly, we know that AI decisions may carry cultural information that can lead to discrimination biases and prejudice. When controls fail, users affected by the decisions must have the right to request review of the solution provided by AI. Thirdly, with the used a lot of data combined for AI learning, they become much more attractive to hackers and data leaks than we also believe that this is necessary to invest in privacy and security controls to mitigate risk and threat.
>> Finally, we believe it's important that institution establishes adequate governance which includes risk analysis, constant review of algorithms, analysis of data quality and et cetera. To guide actions that will prevent problems related to use of AI and also data misuse.
>>ISABEL: Thank you very much. With that,.
>> CHRISTOPHER NEWAN: Thank you very much. Innovate over to you. AI * and trust in public administration*.
>> VALERIYA IONAN: Building trust complex and longterm process. With it comes to AI, important to balance between regulation and innovation. So addressing specific topic of AI, we ministry digital transformation of dwriewk recently presented road map of regulation in Ukraine.Er Ukraine and company correspondent cooperate national partners thank to regime to the EU. Similar AI act. Allow us to create identical legal regimes in the EU there the field of AI simply cooperation with European paren and attract investments provide businesses with stills to provide for future AI regulation from assessing impact of technology and human rights to signing voluntary codes of conduct. Public recommendations to answer questions about what to do right now and what to expect in the future*. Of course safe digital environment where human rights are protected in the digital space where bills are created. Thank you.
>> RUDOLF GRIDL: To the point. Thank you very much. How can trust be build and maintains in age where AI is used if public administration.
>> RUDOLF GRIDL: Use it in the way that trust builds. We are using starting to use AI. Only use it has as a tool. Not as a final decision‑making tool. So what we will do, first step, assistant decisionmaking by AI. It's better? Okay. Okay. Thank you. Should I restart? No? What he we are doing is putting for the time being*, always human at the end of the decision process. That something something that ‑‑ that is something that gives trust. Actually, it's a psychological trust because as we all know, AI sometimes is more reliable and more reSSI in decisionmaking, but precise. We need to be as a state, Government,* we need to take everybody on board. That is something that we are planning to do and I hope that it helps us to create this Daily needed trust on the other hand. Another aspect of trust. Not the trust of the citizens. Trust of civil servants that are dealing with these processes and now owners of the processes and that need to be taken on board also into this process and I think for them also, if we want to create a holistic AI, driven Government, it's important to have civil servants and board. To give them, empower them to give the decision also, be the last ones in the decision line.
>>ISABEL: Thank you very much for raising.
>> CHRISTOPHER NEWAN: Thank you very much raising those two aspects. Human in the loop and trust of civil servants and not only citizens in the end. To round off* this round, can I ask you to share your perspective, please?
>> GAUTHAM RAVICHANDER: I will reinforce what's already been said. Believe importance of ensuring lym ans in the loop. ‑‑ humans in in the loop. Very translatable to AI of the very important for citizens and for the employees to have comfort that there are human beings reviewing this, element of humanity, likely going into the decisionmaking processes. Not necessarily going to be more efficient do this. But it's going to be more trustworthy. You that's pour important in the short run. More important in the short run. Something that mentioned, important for people to know when AI is being used to actually be able to raise where AI giving input. Beyond that, I think we need to look few opportunities that AI presents. So for a country the size of India, range of context in which, types of languages in which we work, it's important avmentd AI can help ensures translation. What we're exploring using of AI to speak across multiple languages. Someone in the north speaking PANJ ABI service by work under the State. Conversation with each. Language they're comfortable with. That's a low hanging fruit*. Second element going to be focusing on is thinking about how do you listen up? Have to deal with one, AI can help you really start making sense for a lot that can come in. Help you listen to voice. Text. Help you make sense of that across multiple languages. Then still what the population is seeing. So that the Government can take that policy. So these two areas are very important. Third, coming up, is the ability for AI to be a copilot. Not just citizens. Employees. For example, medical worker going on the field, sharing that certain medicals calls, need medical checkups. Vaccinations. So AI system should be able to work as a copilot with the medical worker and parent, ask these questions. Should be asking this. Recommend one additional medication. That's the recommendation that human reviewed, carries out. Being able to speak across languages. Able to hear. Acting as a copilot to field courses important space was where AI can come in. Subject to human control. Not controlling humans. Thank you.
>> CHRISTOPHER NEWAN: Nice Finishing statement. Thank you very much. I will try to summarize briefly what we heard. A lot of the similarity themes were hit. In this round. We had issue of transparency. Knowing when AI is being used in decisions in Government services. Bias and discrimination and inclusion. I really liked point of social listening also to be able to use these tools to engage even more deeply and perhaps more broadly with citizenry. And take that up as a Government. And the fact that's a process. Starts small. Experiment. Don't overwhelm citizens. Don't overwhelm civil vearpts aspect‑servants essential aspects building trust. Thank you very much. Lead to the discussion part of this roundtable discussion. We open it to the audience. Want to hear from you. Like to hear from everyone here in this room. Who has a question. Online audience reminder please pose a question into the chat. And depending on time, we will pick it up. We also have runner here somewhere in the room. With microphone. Please raise your hand and we'll see if we have any questions. I think I see a hand back here. Do we have a mic? No. We have physical mic. Briefly state your name and your question.
thank you for the speakers. That was so interesting. Session. I'm running privacy with general purpose. Organizations. Curious to some of things speak, said. Protect personal information, personal data and designing privacy into the practice. Curious how do you make practical approach to make programs for the citizens to be aware, increased of the privatecy, protection. This is a very granular concept. Hard to define. Single approach for the privacy and data protection. Anything that you work on more practical program to help citizens help understanding these kind of very important concept and helping them to be a trusted of the public service to access through the internet*? That's very helpful if you have any idea how to achieve this goal. Thank you.
>> CHRISTOPHER NEWAN: Thank you investment key word is demystifying data protection and data privacy. And how to explain this for to citizens. We can take perhaps one more question. And then we can let our panel respond. I see a question over here. I don't believe. We have a lot of questions. Did we have a mic? Figital I had question about the digital inclusion or exclusion. We have here * four counties. And if you're not a citizen in the country, you may be excluded from the services because you don't have the personal identifier. That is for instance don't have an ADAMA in India. You're bad luck. I wonder if Ukraine, or in Sweden or any other country if you don't have that digital ID number. Sweden. You are not a citizen of that country. Cannot receive any service. For certain increasingly global word. Excludes migrants but also, expats and workers work in different countries. I think digital public services are very often exclusive services. How would you dress address those questions? Throw it back to the panels. Practical ways of Governments are dealing with data protection privacy. What it means and inclusion of noncitizens. Do any of the panelists feel that they want to speak to either of these questions?
>> VALERIYA IONAN: Thank you so much for this great question. So I'll start with the first one. Give you an example of what we are doing. For example, for DEA, we use approach, DEA does not store any personal data. DEA uses approach data in pretravel testing program assist. Means that DEA connects directly to the State's registers and shows data which is needed. That's like the first answer. To highly secure state register. Very important remark. Second remark, next thing that, remember, I told it is very important regular communication from Government to citizens. About digital transformation is, bay are digital services? Why digital literacy is important? What is privacy and so on? Citizens should understand that Government already have their data. The question is how Government uses this data. Right? So for example, when citizens will understand who and when checks their data in the registry and receives notifications, it is about respect for this data, about avoiding misusage of this data. Citizen it's data belong to citizens and they have to know. For example, we in the ministry of digital transformation in the process of launching push notification for all registries. First stage we already done, was notifications about revision for all the credit history in DEA. So for example, if someone checks your credit history, or opens a loan, you get note notified in DEA. Open notification to the link, Ukranian history Bureau react quickly. Same with get a card with credit limit or open a loan. * as you mentioned, very correctly, not a simple topic. Very complex topic. On one hand, you have to work with the prevention. You have to do a lot of communication. You have to launch big projects on digital literacy. Make digital literacy available for everyone. Not only for those whole have gadgets an internet connection. Also for people of elegant age or people who are for some reason excluded and have no internet connection or gadgetsat home. Create opportunity for them, going to some special places Ukraine, we have digital hubs with facilitators who can facilitate first ton tactile with the people with the gadgets et platform. So on. Basically to explain* those things. Third thing technical architecture. So how your technical products are built and how do you basically notify people about using their data. And another good question was about the digital exclusion. Well, in Ukraine, we still have off line centers of public services. If people don't want to use digital services, they still can go and use them off line. The think is that, basically, what revolution made DEA in Ukraine, DEA made digital transformation like a pop culture. DEA is love Mark. We have shown that basically, communication with the Government could be as simple as communication with such start‑ups as Uber, as bold as AirB&B booking. Two clicks and everything is done. So you don't need to stay in line for four hours. You don't need to waste your time waste your money, you have to leave and less Government people have in their lives the better. That's what Ukrainians understood and why and we still can continue and continue to build new digital products and digital services. So any way, it is not a Osama Bin Laden tore toy use DEA. Will of the people to thick mayor lives easier. Not object lig ray Tori. You still have both options. Not obligation Tori. We also need to have off line ways to access these services *. For the people would don't want to. Or can't access them online for some reason. Obligatory. Any of over speakers want to pick up on this point or should we open for another round of questions?(
>> LUANNA RONCARATTI: Quickly try to reacted also to the questions. On the first one. Also don't store data. Basically, a way to direct, to make the different data sets we'll have interoperable and what we do concerning data protection and privacy is that we have been working a lot to prepare and to strengthen resiliency and capacity of different constitutions so that they can.
Institutions so they can safe Green New Deal and protect data ‑‑ safeguard and protect data they may have and storage in data sets all the systems that they have. To communicate better so that people can understand and also, have all the precautions necessary or in their data. And on the exclusion, in case of Brazil, we have actually a number for foreigners who live in Brazil. They can have the identification if they live there. So they can access the digital and also the physicals data sets provided. In some case, such as public have system* even if they don't have the number and even if some person arrives without any document or anything, they are allowed to be served and in these situation. Also have, in some units, some agencies that can provide physical response to people who deserve and demand public safety.
>> CHRISTOPHER NEWAN: Thank you very much much I Waikele like to pick up on the key word of inclusion. And also, include our online audience. * here we have* question. With that I'll hand over to the online moderator Sasha my colleague to please share the question. N.I.N.E. Nesian thank you very much.
>> SASHA NIES: We appreciate questions by participant it's online. We do have a questioner * to the panel on Sumbaer security. Relevance for trust and digital government services. I believe some of it has been covered already by our panel. However, question would be, how far cyber security matters new experience considering alls aspects discussed today already, user‑friendly, eases of access, reliability and so on*.
>> CHRISTOPHER NEWAN: Thank you Sasha. Question of cyber security, digital elephant in the room. That has not been addressed explicitly perhaps. We we'll take one more question. Unfortunately will then also be the last question. I see question over there. Microphone right there. By chance. Please.
I have way related question to cyber security. You asked previously, what how to deal with trust age of AI. I ask how to deal with with trust in the age of cloud computing. And context that most governmental services are moving to the cloud. And most countries rely on foreign cloud infrastructures, be it AWS, wave,. AZURE or whatever. So edge two countries in the world kind of are having their own domestic cloud operators. And the rest rely on foreign cloud operators. Our part in the Government in Africa kind concerned about the digital sovereignty of the public services running on foreign cloud infrastructure.
>> CHRISTOPHER NEWAN: Thank you very much think was there one question final question back there? I see it's burning question. Other two, we'll put together. Please be brief brief. I'm Glenda. From the Philippines. Since AI gives feedback from the office. To sees gathers.
>>ANNIE: Lives from the cloud, internet*. How do we sprent AI from divulging critical information from the systems database and websites what limits AI in giving and what it must just give publicly and be cautious in getting information that needs to be kept private*? :
>> CHRISTOPHER NEWAN: Sounds like a a whole another session in and of itself. Thank you for the question. We have approximately four minutes remaining and therefore, I would like one or two panels to pick up on the issue of cyber security and cloud computing. And perhaps another comment on the question of AI, how do we ensure it doesn't go spilling all of our governmental secrets and secrets of all of our citizens.
>> VALERIYA IONAN: Issue of cloud, and cyber security,.
>> RUDOLF GRIDL: Issue of cliewnd cyber security. Relevant issue. German Government. Intensely,* working on two track solution. Either building our own like federal German cloud, perhaps feasible for some very dedicated services. But also, we are working with international cloud providers on trying to modify their cloud systems in a way that they will be sovereign clouds for Germany. So we are discussing. We will see where we will get. But that's very important. And same goes for the cyber security of course. Everything that we are doing in our state system, we are doing it inside a very highly protected cyber security enforced system. That is, I think that is not the challenge. The challenge is do it user‑friendly and cyber secure.
>> CHRISTOPHER NEWAN: Online speak. Questions of cyber security and cloud computing, and AI, anything to add briefly before we wrap up the session? Okay. I see hands um. Sorry. I was looking for physical hands. There are the virtual hands in front of us. Over to you.
>> GAUTHAM RAVICHANDER: Pretty much what Germany is doing. Add one additional thing on the cloud. What we see is in my room, cannot be at. Which is bit of re‑education that often now. Having to to do with folks coming in. But I think the other one comes back to the cost of actually maintaining that kind of infrastructure. When you kind of run that against cost of working on the cloud. A lot of times, Government quickly understand that, much better for me to use this as a service. Rather than build out entire team.Er whole internet and resources on this. Piece about sprief. Privacy. Cyber securityment all points said before completely agree with*. Primarily I think one element on cyber security keep happening with systems communication. With you do have bridge, dealt with beachings keeping people informed in a way that builds trust is more important than saying it didn't get breached. When you have breech it's. Sometimes we have to claim people up front. Not because people had them. Inadvertently released data. That kind of capacity is very in our minds, think of people hacking in, it's foundations of cyber security. About 50 percent of breeches happen not because somebody hack the season, somebody released information.
>> CHRISTOPHER NEWAN: Thank you very much. For raising that point. Your hand is still up. I ask you to be brief. Your comments about of we wrap up the session.
>> try.
>> VALERIYA IONAN: Wanted to give a small story. Few months* before full scale invasion to Russian. Cyber air attacks Ukraine. Working on new law we should have allows us to transfer data into the cloud. Few weeks before the full scale Russian invasion to Ukraine, this law was adopted. We moved all data into the cloud. And then when whole scale Russian invasion started, in the week Russian missile hit it. Data center. Physically. Destroyed data stern where we used tier storer back upment data what in the cloud. I would like to addresses question to our minds there is no unique solution to that. Always have to*.
>>Representative Belatti: and it does not mean to you ‑‑ you have to balance. Does not mean to you have data center or store data only in clouds. You have to balance. Same comes about corporation different partners. We believe in goal again triangle. Government should work private sector and civil society and find the best ways to cooperate for mutual benefit.* About cyber security, of course super seriously. When it comes for example specifically to DEA system, own team working on daily basis to find even minor vulnerabilities. We also conduct bug bounties EIS twice a year. Plenty of other measures. So cyber security is very big and very important topic. We take it super seriously and would be really glad to share our Insights maybe in the next session. Thank you very much for your attention*.
>>ISABEL:
>> CHRISTOPHER NEWAN: Thank you very much. To your panelists thank you for your inpickup and contributions. Thank you to the audience who is here. I'm sorry we cannot take all of your questions. Very good discussion*. Feel free to hang around. Float outside. With us later. Question can continue the discussion. We can continue the discussion. Wish you Erin southful IGF 2023. ‑‑ wish you insightful IGF 2023. Thank you.
[applause]*.