The following are the outputs of the captioning taken during an IGF intervention. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.
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>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Can you hear me? Check, check, check, I want to make sure we can also hear them. Ladies and gentlemen, esteemed speakers, guests, ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon. And good evening. You're welcome to today's session, my name is Abdul Ghayoor Bawary, committee member. Privilege for me to serve as moderator.
We are gathered here to explore, discuss and inspire. This is organized ‑‑ teaching assistant at Geneva University. Also with me as remote moderator. First I would like to extend my warm welcome to our distinguished speaker. Thank you for your willingness to share your insights and expertise with us. Your contributions to play a vital role our collective understanding of empowering Afghan woman. Bridging digital gaps for education.
First name my ‑‑ audio difficulties ‑‑ senior Advisor. Policy and regulation IGF. Joining us in a few minutes. She will be coming. Maria Beebe, consultant IDG Asia Open RAN Academy. Join us remotely. Sajia Yarmal joining us remote.
We have Zhala Sarmast with technical technologies. Also join us remotely and we have Dr. Farzaneh Badiei, director of Digital Medusa. Last but not least, we will be having Maria Beebe, a lot of hats on. Introducing herself more for us. I'll be giving three to five speakers. They will been introducing themselves. Their position. Designation, for two to three minutes or three to five minutes. So first, I'll be giving the floor to our first speaker. Because she's already on site with us.
>> FARZANEH BADIEI: Thank you for joining us. Joining us in person or personally. I am Farzaneh Badiei senior Advisor strategy with the IGF foundation. Based in New Delhi India. Such a privilege to be able to have some space to comment on the various intersecting issues we're going to be discussing today.
How to empower, how to empower women and how to empower Afghan women towards extremely important outcome. That is education.
Let me start by telling you a little bit about the foundation. Founded in 2017. And we have technical roots. Our partner organization which regional internet registry in the Asia Pacific. APNIC. We are mandated slightly broad issues towards internet development and digital development and digital transformation. 56 economies in Asia and Pacific. Work cross‑sectionally number of issues with partners and communities especially in South Asia and Pacific in Oceania.
Today's topic makes me wonder about the sort of collective impact we need to have a wide number of partners were governments to commercial entities to civil society to technical community as well as independent experts, academia to come together to address various issues with respect to the community that we're trying to address too. We're concerned with today. That is Afghan women. Including Afghan girls. Gender diverse people in Afghanistan. Giving socioeconomic situation in Afghan today, many structural issues facing Afghan girls, women, gender diverse people in the country. Privacy on devices, uses may not P allow complete agency to use the such device, connectivity, meaningful access and ability to choose, have control over how the women and girls connect. How they participate in the digital economy. How they learn, how they work, connect with each other. How they access opportunities. This is by no means small task. It's a very tall order. Very tall order. And it is not possible for any one entity to be able to solve on their own. Even begin to address on their own. Which is why would like to maybe bring forward a framework of collective, where we can partner with one another. Where we can identify the gaps, identify the capabilities that need to be built, identify how we could partner with one another. And bring into the equation devices, connectivity, access, digital literacy, even linguistic diversity. Considering that many, many women participants in this conversation actually not consuming information or even looking for opportunities in English or one of the more widely spoken, widely accepted languages in the world.
There are many, many issues, very many levels which I'm sure we'll get into think my fellow panelists today living in Afghanistan or lived experiences in Afghanistan have so many more stories to tell. And much informed than perhaps I can ever be. With that, I'll perhaps pass it back and happy to comment later.
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Thank you very much. I would like to request each of our distinguished speakers to first shortly introduce themselves. One by one. Then we'll be jumping to the questions. Thank you very much. Over to you.
>> ANJA GENGO: Thank you so much. Very good morning to everyone. I usually am not late for any of my meetings. Or sessions. But I think you'll understand me and excuse me, essential focal point or entity for the organization. And this is very first day when everything started. It's important, presentation of couple of months of work. Have to be multiplied places this morning.
Really coincidental I was just in a session called women's summit in internet governance. Organized by dear friend. We just spoke a lot about the importance of closing gender‑based digital divide still alarming pace and overall speaking on statistics. Also good we are making progress looking back in the past two decades.
We mentioned quite a lot Afghanistan especially women and girls in Afghanistan, the challenging situation that they are now, we spoke about the denial of basic human rights which is right to education. And how important digital especially now, it's really a life line for girls and women there where digital represents only opportunity to continue with education, to continue with networking, communicating, with others, channeling voices back and forth. And that is why the infrastructure itself is now more than ever important to be able to support implementation of human rights especially for women and girls there.
Spoke quite a lot about not long time ago, think it was 2019 maybe, when I had the pleasure to go also to Afghanistan to work with a lot of colleagues there. And on that particular note, it was one of the most impressive national IGFs in terms of participation and program structure. Because of the a topic, in terms of female empowerment that you can feel there when you are working with all of those people, I don't speak just about women and girls as such. I also speak about the men would were supporting their integration. It was a wonderful cooperation we've seen and most recent examples of course are the disturbing and I think extremely important for the global community to address them and to do everything that is in our capacity to ensure that there isn't a girl or a woman on this planet that doesn't have basic human rights which is the right to education to start firstly.
I hope there is enough capacity to do that and make a change in that sense. We spoke quite a lot at this session. Colleagues are moving through this session to come, about wonderful good practices that exist across the world in terms of supporting education for women and girls at that we are not relying any more on that conservative thought and structure that the education needs to be given to us by for example, governmental structure. But that the multistakeholder model really plays a role in terms of setting up corporation and implementation for supporting various forms of education.
Spoke quite a lot about wonderful capacity development initiatives carrying out for educating women and girls, coding and robotics, in overall ICT understanding, also capacity involved one of our mandate the objectives. Within our capacity we do everything we can to ensure that we have community engaged in internet governance special focus women and girls, understanding parts of world they are marginalized, vulnerable, don't have the same opportunities as men would have. In that sense, one of the greatest partners to us are the national and youth IGF. Wonderful examples of capacity development just grassroots community efforts multistakeholder level. Directed to engaging communities, partnerships sense of ownership of this type of processes. Most important resulting stronger policies supporting the use of our digital technologies.
And then final point, I would like to say, level the IGF, we are also through our structures, trying everything that we can to support gender parity being represented there.
I'll give you one example of the heart of IGF, especially in terms of programing, in terms of agenda. We'll be discussing in the multistakeholder advisory group. Aagenda.
Achieve gender parity across the challenge. Last couple of years managed to achieve gender parity, we have members represented which really makes the difference in terms of having really (audio difficulties) about the topics that we are discussing today.
On this agenda, next day and next four days, topics related to gender quality. All of them will result Riyadh IGF messages. That will be our collective voice to channel digital community to make a changed and ensure that women and girls are better represented in our society. Because they are really one of the key pillars of sustainable development and that means just better life quality for all of us.
With that, I have agenda to run. Really apologize. Catch up with all of you. Will you be hear the next five days. I look forward to meeting you all. Thank you very much.
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Thank you. Really appreciate it. Lots often engagements you have.
I'll be jumping next speaker. Introduce themselves and talk about their background. Message from my colleague, one or two speakers, very important. Maria and Dr. Farzaneh Badiei. I will come back. Distinguished speakers. Thank you very much for joining.
I will be given time to settle here. Go youngest speakers.
>> ZHALA SARMAST, can everybody hear me?
>> >> CHRISTOPHER NEWMAN:: Ask my he technical colleagues ‑‑
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Ask technical speak for make their host.
>> ZHALA SARMAST: Can I get thumbs up if you can hear me.
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Can you please speak up? We can't hear you. Still can't hear. Please speak to make sure you're audible.
>> SAJIA YARMAL: Technical problem.
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Technical team solved this. After the next speaker. Jumping to the next speaker. Welcome you. Give you few minutes to introduce yourself. Audience and everyone know you. Everyone knows you (audio difficulties).
>> LIMA MADOMI: I am from India. Society of organization called CCUI. Currently chairing IGF, Asia‑Pacific region internet governance forum. (audio difficulties) school of internet governance since their formation. Invited me to speak. Different time to be. I have seen how young people especially women from Afghanistan been participating in various discussions related to I T and internet governance forum. Participate in a lot of IT discussions. I think we can hear at this point of time. Speak first. Can't hear you at this point in time. I think this is an important topic. Especially inclusion. Championing equal rights to everyone to education, participate technology obviously.
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Thank you very much. Is the problem solved? Speakers and audience.
>> LIMA MADOMI: Can you hear me?
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Test with you, can you please talk so we can make sure you're audible?
>> LIMA MADOMI: Hi. Can you hear me? Can you hear me?
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Our apologies for the technical issues. We'll be resuming in a few minutes until the technical team.
We'll continue with our on site speakers. As well as with audience. I have audience members. Already tried to have you today. Participation not only welcomed essential to current session and discussion. Please feel free to jump in, engage us, ask questions, share your perspectives through the session. Our program is designed in a way to encourage, and exchange of ideas. I encourage everyone to take this opportunity to connect, learn and grow together.
I have a question. Speakers can maybe talk of their experiences. Afghanistan working everyone ways. Experience. Audience, also jump in.
Anybody your experience, connected with Afghanistan. What is the current situation regarding Afghan woman's access woman to technology and education given recent restorations such as bans on education and limited internet access recent restrictions (you can talk about that.
Are you going first? Thank you.
>> Something all of us would be ‑‑ (audio difficulties, current situation is not all that great. Cannot get act ‑‑ access to education. Don't have the rights to internet or ICT. Not a very healthy situation considering ‑‑ families mixed generation. Not only their own personal benefit. Even children studying also need, educated mothers, well educated, helps family bring them up. ‑‑ not allow a woman to study, will not allow a woman to access quality, state of affairs will not even help in the country. Because women in that population. (audio difficulties) ‑‑ continue speaking? (no audio) for the country. Allow every gender to have equal access to education. ICT and opportunities.
How is it? This were some questions you had, what can be done. Have your speakers participating more, ask, observers. Trying to do a lot of things. Really good if we could actually have those voices heard.
Unfortunately not being as inclusive as possible. In this session, so yes, I guess that is for me at this point of time. If you want to add something to it. I think pass it on. Not getting the people.
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Thank you very much. Before I jump to next speaker, I would like to invite speaker. Please come over. You're welcome to join us. Can you please unmute yourself and talk? Make sure you're audible.
>> Can you hear me?
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Is it okay with you guys?
>> Unfortunately we are not able to hear you at all. Very like the breaking a lot. And it's very low.
>> LIMA MADOMI: Not able to hear you. I'm happy you can hear us.
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Everybody can hear? I want to make sure experiencing the same.
>> LIMA MADOMI: Exactly the same. Difficult to hear you guys there.
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: I would request my technical team to resolve this issue as well. So we will be jumping to you guys.
Welcome. Than I do have you here. Give the opportunity to identify yourself. More about yourself. Question I raised about the current situation with women despite the current situation, education. Over to you.
>> OMAR ANSARI: I hope everybody can hear me. Yes? My name is Omar Ansari. Foundation deeply committed to its work both Gender Equality and social inclusion. And so it's my background in gender and valuation.
Perhaps there is something I could shed some light on what is happening in Afghanistan. I've had the opportunity to work on gender with a number of multilaterals in Afghanistan. Perhaps one of the parallels that we could take for the situation that is happening today was perhaps during the time of COVID when there was moratorium on physical access to education indaba were some of the challenges that we faced and some of the solutions we are able to find, what are some of the challenges, country critical to address of course is the connectivity to make sure that the last is available. Have devices and digital learning in the languages that is suitable for education. Beyond that, it's also very important to work on the social norms.
Without addressing social norms, what we found out, uptake for the schools an curriculum that was provided, was minimal. There are ways in which to get around that and some of those ways are to have a strategy to address the social norms within the families, within communities, with religious leaders, community elders and once you are able to do that, there is a lot of fight or girl and women to access education.
We have to understand what is access. Access is not merely infrastructure. Access is also able to use the device and often you will know in many of these communities and I think as an Afghanistan, many situations in other countries, where you have vulnerable populations, the problem is that device is often family device. Not necessarily a woman's device. Not necessarily exclusively for women and girls for their education.
Having understood that, access to device is very much to what is the cultural norms in that community. Sort of devices available. If you do have a device, may not be a smartphone. Not able to take the complete benefit of where whatever digital tools and curriculum that you developed.
So what we found is that in the spaces, often some people call them safe spaces, spaces where women and girls are able to go and to learn. Critically important. Otherwise, because of the social norms, gender norms, responsibilities for the care, for domestic chores, away from a concerted effort to spend time on their education.
I think whether when we look at Afghanistan today, in the development and conflict nexus lessons from other countries around the world use tools to ensure education and ensure all girls will benefit from that.
Happy to take questions about safe space and community engagement. Stop here get online participants to talk more about the situation right there. Thank you.
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Thank you very much. Find it tangible issues and problems, Afghan women will face.
Again, like to make sure speakers are audible and also they can hear us well.
Over to my moderation. To start. Give to the next speaker. Over to you. Lima.
>> LIMA MADOMI: Hello everyone. I don't know if you can hear me. Unfortunately we are struggling to hear you. But as long as you can hear me, I'll go ahead and start.
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: You're audible.
>> LIMA MADOMI: Okay. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us and my name is Lima Madomi. I am research and teaching assistant at University of Geneva. My book background in technology. Working in technology for the past almost 10 years. I was fellow of internet governance forum in addition to that I have worked for a very long time in Afghanistan with Omar and everyone there. Different technological sections, especially for women and technology. Yeah, I'm really happy to be here and will be helping as a comoderater. Please let me know if there is anything and I will be informing you about any messages in Chat or anything out here.
Zhala will not be able to join us. I am hoping that Maria will be joining us soon. So back to you.
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Thank you very much Lima. Happy to have you. Over to you to introduce yourself and talk a little bit about yourself. Over to you.
>> OMAR ANSARI: Do you remember me? Face to virtually meet you. My name is Omar Ansari Singapore. With manufacturing facility is Singapore and Canada. Heavily hard sciences specific chemistry and media. Study at Yale cool US college bachelors of honours the physician and athlete with the women's cycling team nominated for the mobile peace prize in 2016. Noble peace prize work with big group of Afghan students every year. Try to get access to educational opportunities outside of Afghanistan. So that is something that is very close to my heart. Because it's experience that I've gone through applying to universities to try to get a good education.
Work with media, work on digital campaigns and digital educational platforms for Afghan women, youth, in general. Afghans. Diving deeper in the question he is. That's in a nutshell. Nice to meet all of you.
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Very inspiring,.
>> SAJIA YARMAL: Thank you. Good morning everyone. My name is Sajial Yarmal, based in Germany. I'm from Afghanistan country under the Taliban regime being a woman feels like a crime. It's true, woman in my country face restriction. Cannot speak freely, make own decisions where go to what to do. Thankful for the opportunity in this moment and space is to raise my voice and shed light on critical issues facing Afghan woman. Especially access to digital resources and unfortunately for education in this difficult time.
For me, actually, it doesn't matter if you know my personal background. What matters is that we are gathered here to talk about women of my country. Women who are suffering every day and voices silent and dreams are stolen.
For these woman, only glimmer of hope as a woman, all around the world stand United. Struggles, for solution, and international community to ensure that even not a single woman is silent. Excluded or denied for most basic rights.
Thank you. My session for today's sessions.
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Thank you very much. Happy to have you on the panel.
Regarding current situation. Afghan women. Access to technology and education given recent restriction.
I would like to get your views on this. You are Afghan and experienced or with these. What is it like in your findings on the current situation of Afghan women and access to technology and education? In the current restrictions of women.
>> Thank you for the question. Let me give you awesome context in this regard. So since the Taliban took part in Afghanistan in August 2021, Afghanistan has been in a deep crisis. Especially for women and girls. Taliban's policies have pushed women out of public life. Girls are banned in schools. Cannot go to community. Cannot go to public parks. These restrictions isolate us somehow women and destroy progress we worked so hard to achieve.
Restrictions keep every day increasing, leaving women without hope or opportunities for nearly three years now, Afghan women have been faced to stay at home like prisoners in their own house. Difficult situation, access to digital tools and internet has become life line for many Afghan women. Internet can open doors to education, jobs and even way to races their voices. Political restrictions and Taliban policies have made these access even harder.
This increasing inequality and silenceing woman even more.
I think one major problem is the Taliban's control over the internet. Many places, there is no internet at all and in areas where there is internet. Taliban some sort of content, making it impossible to access educational programs, news, or global platforms.
They also monitor online activities so women fear being tracked or somehow punished for breaking the Taliban's rules. As a result, women are not restricted physically but also, digitally trapped.
I think second problem or challenge is Afghanistan economy collapsed. Smartphones computers, internet, services are too expensive for most families. Especially for women depended on male members, family members for financial support, this makes access even harder.
When families have limited resources, they cannot prioritize, they cannot, sorry. Do you remember.
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Yes.
>> SAJIA YARMAL: Hello.
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: You're audible. We can hear you.
>> SAJIA YARMAL: I'm hearing you guys very hard but I will continue my presentation on my speech.
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Yes. Please. Continue.
>> SAJIA YARMAL: As I mentioned, when the families have limited resources, they often prioritize boys and men over women and girls over internet access P focus on biggest barriers which education. We all know education is the key to using technology. But Afghan girls are banned from schools and universities. Millions Afghan women and girls cannot learn basic skills to using to. Without schools and higher education they lose the chance to connect with digital world and access the opportunities it offers.
I think impact of these restriction is devastating. On education, could give Afghan women chance to learn even we education bans. Platform that teaching, coding, language, or professional skills could help women improve their lives. But without access to the internet, or basic digital skills, women are left out and cycle and poverty and dependence continues.
I have seen how powerful digital tools can be. Connect with the world and fight for their rights. Also seen how the lack of internet or access leaves women feeling hopeless and isolated. For Afghan woman, the digital world is not just a tool. I think it's a life line. It gives women a chance to regain control of their lives in the society that has taken away their independence and their rights.
Restrictions are not just rules. They are somehow tools of control to takeaway Afghan women dignity and future. So as a last point, what can we do for this situation? The situation is hard, of course, but it's not impossible. There are steps that governments, organizations, and individuals can take to help Afghan woman access digital tools. International organizations could or should work to provide safe and affordable internet for Afghan women or for Afghan people. Tools like VPN and encrypted communication can also help bypass censorship. Online programs can help women to build, slow internet and international communities also I think they must continue pursuing Taliban to respect womens rights, including rights to education and have access on internet or technology.
There is also possibility that tech companies an governments can stand against censorship and mentoring the regulation which nowadays, we are experiencing in Afghanistan.
Some points from my view can help Afghan women to have access to the internet and have opportunity to develop and to Work for their skills. I think if we focus on problems and proposed solutions and follow up with them, bring opportunity for everyone of us to solve the problem which we are especially women in Afghanistan are facing in Afghanistan.
So these are my points. Can you hear me, if you are able to hear me, I will be here for other questions as well. But for this discussion, that was my points.
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Thanks thank you. Thank you very much. Critical issues. Regarding situation of Afghan women and access to education and technology. Considering your points, jump. How do such barriers internet blockages, unreliable electricity, gender‑based inequalities Afghan woman, woman's ability to connect to digital resources and participate in education Allan opportunities.
>> ZHALA SARMAST: Thank you. We responded to they pointing out obvious. Responded to this question. Daily basis see how internet blockages, fear of posting something online or accessing, I'm not going to really say accessing quality education. Think blockages, blockages more than three years ago. Still possible to P access internet content. Need IT or tech expert to shed some light on how if that is the case. Content can still be accessed. Important to remember before the Taliban took over, we had significant challenges when it came to access to digital devices and access to internet.
Previously for our guest that were not there, question looked at some statistics that were quite dramatic when we were looking at access to digital devices and the internet amongst male and female sort of users across Afghanistan. Even though the number of users getting access to internet and digital devices has been increasing over time, women's access to digital devices has been very drastic. If I remember this correctly, in the rural areas Afghanistan, access of women to digital tech devices was 2% only. And for the male, it was is somewhere near do I think 55%. Shows like a significant difference.
Of course this has become even more severe after the Taliban takeover in Afghanistan. If we don't have internet blockages, there's a very strong fear of resisting some of the policies in place such as the closure of schools and educational institutions.
But not to mention, that that is still resistance through many different kinds of responses whether it's art, whether it's different sort of initiatives through media outlets whatever. I think that is separate question. I'm going to focus on the impact for the moment.
I think under reliable electricity one issue constantly struggled with in Afghanistan even as I was growing up. Frequent limited internet or like power blockages across Afghanistan, limit Afghan people, specifically Afghan womens access to on line platforms that can offer education and skills training or career development.
Aside from that, one thing always stood out to me working with students every year is gender‑based inequality. I'm going to he provide more personal kind of response to this so we look at tangible examples of what I mean when I say gender‑based inequalities. For me working with students, has always been kind of focus and boys getting access to quality education and opportunities than women. If a family can afford digital devices prefer for the sons more than the daughters. Cannot generalize, but my experience to a major extent. When I work with online applications with colleges different students Afghan sons, I think relatively easier to get to access to digital education, where women would have to juggle house chores, in school, all the other things they have.
Lots of things that can fall into that umbrella of gender‑based inequalities. You get my point. I'll wrap it up here. Look forward to the next session.
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Thank you very much for sharing your insights. Over to you. I violence against women question here. How can digital literacy skilled programs be designed for Afghan women, for the challenges they face. What is your point of view, how can these issues be tackled?
>> I think designing of the program, have to be such that it is language. (audio difficulties) it can also work in job opportunities. Possibility of having download options. (audio difficulties).
>> ZHALA SARMAST. Sorry audio not too good. Trying to get the community involved, going to be inefficient. (audio difficulties) courses designed in such a way. (audio difficulties).
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: You said you have good example. Share some examples of initiatives or programs that have empowered Afghan women through technology or providing access to education, skills economic opportunities. I would like to remind very dear audience that you are most welcome to raise your hands if you have any questions. If you have any ideas or opinions to share with us, you are most welcome to raise your hand and we'll give you the opportunity as well. Pillar of this discussion.
>> Thank you very much. I hope everyone can hear me. So what I wanted to share, I would like to reiterate that gender rights are human rights. And that has to be (audio difficulties) successful programs. Understand (audio difficulties) raise your hand if you can't hear me at any point. Trying to get my train of thought back.
What I wanted to say, wherever we talk about gender, we cannot forget to ideas that are behind gender. One of them as we mentioned, (no audio) deeply, male entitlement means that men and boys have more opportunities and better access. Escape. One moment. May I speak again? Is this clear? Okay. What I want ‑‑ no. Is this great?
I wanted to say we have to understand that gender is about gender relations. And unless we acknowledge that there is something called male entitlement we are not going to go far.
Second we have to understand systems and structures institutional structures of family and community that are in a sense skewed against acknowledging opportunities for women and girls.
Unless we address both of them, it's going to be very difficult to have gender quality or gender access to education and we heard examples real life examples of how boys could access but girls could not.
The whole problem of domestic responsibilities and care which hinder girls and women even with is this very access to devices even when they have the tools digital tools, they will not be able to make full use of them because of these problems. The time is divided.
What I wanted to talk about, very important aspect is mobility. There is so much restriction on the mobility of women. Where they go, what they do. That is one of the opportunities of having internet and the digital access in order to be able to go beyond it.
Now, as you mentioned, one of the problems is to have connectivity. And in order for women to manage connectivity, to have the space and the time to spend on themselves, and to have that education we have found that having community spaces, community engagement and safe spaces for girls to come to, provides the best opportunity for them to learn.
What does that mean? The community buy‑in of religious leaders, of elders, of men in the community, in the family, is absolutely essential. Having got that, having got that trust and confidence, you are able to provide the space for women and girls to come to these spaces to learn and the change that happen SS quite spectacular in the sense that girls and women understand that there is a whole world outside their little homes and little communities that they are working in., and they this can learn and achieve great deal.
Many of them because of what they've learned, have been able to help their families. Economically as well. These opportunities are then appreciated. But we need to understand we have to place some foundational blocks within the social norm space, gender equal space for gender access internet capability. Cannot happen without it. We wanted to stress.
Many ways of intervening in this. We talk about the microspaces. Community space. Talk about the meiosis as hopefully getting some sort of buy‑in from the government or other SSI systems and institution. Religious institution very important. What about the global community? We have a tremendous responsibility such as this. Others, to advocate for womens rights to education for Afghan women and what they're facing too. Is the voice loud enough? Are we doing enough? Not just women talking about it. Happy to see we have men and women in this room advocating for Afghan women's rights. But we need to have much louder voice in the international forums that we have to do and do the clout in order to do that. Thank you.
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Thank you very much. Thank you. Kind of solutions. So building the community‑based spaces for women. I would like to ‑‑ yes. Sure. You can't hear? Perfect. Perfect. We have a question from one of our audience. You want to speak. Over to you.
>> I forgot the lady from Afghanistan's name. My question is a directed to her. I'm from South Africa. I work with women and girls and after you gave your speech, I thought of one question I wanted to find out. So once women are empowered, you've done what you've done, what is next for a woman Afghanistan? Able to study business? Are they able to get a job? What does the empowerment means? What does it mean to have a women's voice besides security issues? From a family point of view. It's changed scenario for them for their families. Do they get respect or what?
>> SAJIA YARMAL: Can I ask. Is it me?
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Willing to answer.
>> SAJIA YARMAL: Was that directed to me?
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Let's give the space to ZHALA.
>> ZHALA SARMAST: Okay.
>> SAJIA YARMAL: Thank you for asking the questions. I think this is good point. Let me explain this from my own experience. 30 years old growing up in Afghanistan. Before Taliban took power in Afghanistan, women had an opportunity to grow up in Afghanistan in environment with lots of Andrea Tupola which we worked for that a as I mentioned in my speech before.
We went to school. We went to university. We got the job. And we start even our own businesses. So these were the opportunities which we had in the previous or last government in the past 20 to 30 years.
And besides that, I think we should look rights of women same as the rights of human rights. I mean, if you are talking about women rights, which they have, it doesn't matter if it's Afghanistan, or if it's in another country or society, we have to respect these rights. It doesn't matter if they really achieve something big. The progress is important. For me as young woman, in Afghanistan, had experienced to work there, to get education there, that was opportunity for me to Work for myself or my family and for my society. We had opportunities to get involved in many activities in Afghanistan national and international communities which we had in Afghanistan and also the platforms we have experienced them in Afghanistan.
We not only brought these opportunities to Afghanistan, and used these opportunities as well and not only me, there were like most of the population of Afghanistan are young generations, so not only men, not only women, also men benefit from these opportunities which we had in Afghanistan.
I think you could add points of view in this regard. But I think that was opportunity for all women in Afghanistan. And if we ignored those opportunities, so I think also in the future, we cannot really work on Afghan woman and opportunities which we could bring in Afghanistan. Over to you.
>> Thank you for the question.
>> ZHALA SARMAST: I find the question a little bit interesting. I don't exactly know what you mean when you say so what that when women are empowered, what's next. For the past 50 to 70 years, in Afghanistan, focus has been to get women empowered to give women education, to give women financial independence. To give women literacy. So I think once you empower women, women are treated as equal human being in the society. Which I think is the ultimate goal. That is why we strive for education. Like I said. Economic inclusion. Political inclusion. Social inclusion. Et cetera. Again, not sure exactly what you mean by that when you say so what when women are empowered or what's next. I think when women are empowered, they make economic contributions, political contributions. Financial independence big deal in the world nowadays because it actually stops women from getting access to so many things because they're not financially independent. Economic contributions I hope my responses precise enough to address the question. But if it's still not clear, I would be happy to respond in more detail.
I'm trying to answer it in a different way. India also has a very patriarchal system. Not as extreme as it is in Afghanistan. There are some experiences. I'll just give you some analogies. I have a friend of mine in accountancy. Came from a business family. Woman used to not study after their class 10, which is 16 years. Is he got into a job. There was a lot of opposition in her family. First in her house do so. When they saw her doing economically well, earning money, in her own terms, and getting respect in the society, all of her other family members, children in the extended family, girls, got a chance to study, to get into job, choose their own kind of careers an even decide when they want to get married.
Remember in India, still have a lot of arranged marriages where women have to marry within a particular age. So people see we education, with employability, those things change. When money starts coming into families, they questions also change. Hard facts which has been seen.
Similarly, many of the women, it's not necessary for them to even two for a job. Or even go to something. But they will be able to teach the kids at home. What is right, what is wrong. What is needed as progressive society. Not saying wearing western clothes but having open mind. Education brings that. That's why we talk about education.
Why reading is important. And illiterate mother may not be able to push the children testudo that. You have to get to study that for everybody. Get an interest, helping that family to uplift.
If you can work, you should have a right what you want to work. That's a fundamental right. Okay. That's fundamental thing. But I think it helps to uplift the family also.
For example medical health, many times remote places or many places women cannot be go out of the house, if you have some basic knowledge, you will not get into medical sciences. For example, many times don't want to go to doctors. They want to go to quacks. If you have education you will know what it means to go even go to a doctor. May be small things but help a family not only the woman.
I think she wants to add something.
I think the points had a we're trying to advocate here I want to flip it over to head for one minute and maybe talk about ask the question pause and ask who and what Afghan women and girls empower in turn? What sort of, I think the question we need to ask, who what can Afghan women empower? So many social economic outcomes, Afghan women, resilient girl and women they are in this so society this region. World. Economic outcomes they can help achieve. They can pay if they have the financial opportunities and the financial ability. Culturally as well to move around in the economy.
Social economic outcomes that they can help unlock. Sort of future generations they can bring up. That in turn, contribute to society. I think we need to flip this narrative a little bit on its head and ask, women in power only and only if they're just allowed the space to be would they want to be, speak how they want to speak, do exactly what they want to do, everyone stands to gain with that. Right? Absolutely everyone.
The government, men, boy, women, themselves, society as a whole.
>> I think organizations which are helping do that, for example today, organizations nationally want to do something within the country is not allowed, cannot fund those type of projects, these are happening in the community which can help the country. So I think these kind should be allowed to work or network operators grew, or I don't know if ethic foundation can put in money in Afghanistan to help in many of those social uplifting programs, et cetera. International community and community at large could look at those things what are the tools which are needed for empowerment. Different types of empowerment. One is rights. One is civic rights, et cetera. Human rights, et cetera. Uplifting digital technologies, making life easier, through technology, even communicating. I think these are important things we need to think of.
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Any questions or you want to clarify something? Sure. Okay.
>> From here? Like this? Oh, okay.
I think what can Afghanistan women do to empower their world? And other women? For me, how we should be looking at it and not purely because we will learn something. Open the world where the girls who are beinging empowered and not knowing what's outside, especially internet world. I know lots of programs read a lot about Afghanistan. Helps with coding. Women teaching women how to code. Those girls were offering job, school meticulous. I learned so many things from just listening to what they were talking about.
Another example, women in Gaza offering mentorship program to some of my girls in South Africa. Very difficult situation. But they still have time when they do get that limited access to internet, to contribute and teach coding to other girls.
But for them, it's just to know what is the outside world. How do you contribute? Main thing here is, we can go anywhere we want in the world, unless we are address what she talked about, entitlement, nobody is empowered. As much as we want to see we're empowered as women. Address what she's talking about, male entitlement. Any woman empowered have to face male entitlement. Unless we empower other, give us more rights to break these women's rights taken away from women.
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Thank you very much. Over to you. Can you hand over the mic to her? Can you help me to pass the mic, please?
>> DR. FARZANEH BADIEI: Can you hear me? Excellent. Shauna Hoffman from the U.S.A. and I'm AI expert. I have been little over 25 years. The question that I have, thank you for being brave. Thank you for being here today, all of you.
The women empowerment, I love what you just said about that. I would love to make that more tangible. How can those of us outside of Afghanistan help empower the local women? What is that you need? There's rules. There's specific boundaries we would say, for the local women. What can we do? You mentioned cell phones. Can we collect cell phones from the United States and ship them over? Could we provide some sort of internet access? More funds to get the internet access? What can we do? Then also, we're actually going on a tour in Afghanistan in October. And one of the tour groups mentioned there were 300 businesses ran by women that we are going to be seeing during that tour. Love to understand more about that and the women's rights. Question number one is what tangibly can we do for you? If I bring cell phones over with me, can we pass them out? Is that helpful?
Second step is what are womens rights locally for those who are running businesses and trying to continue on with what they had prior to three years ago?
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Thank you very much. Question open to any speaker who can tackle this specifically?
>> Am I audible? India government has a scheme, wherein if a girl in certain states, if a girl in her class 12, does above particular mark, gets a laptop. They got a laptop. Then it was transferred, laptop was given to the brothers. That also happened.
You may be giving cell phone, who is going to recharge? Who will have access to it? Those things are also some things you have think of. Where will they recharge if there is no electricity. Those things should be thought. Just not giving it over. But how do you continue it?
I'm not saying it's not a bad idea. You will have to look at the entire chain of events.
That business up very good point. Kenya purchased cell phones for those local, we also provided them the cell phone solar service. For those in Afghanistan, recently, what would be something you could say something you really can do that's tangible that will actually help us?
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Anyone do you want to tackle this question. I'm so sorry. Wanted to point out, one very important thing. I'm sorry for breaking in. Like this. When we talk about empowerment, and when we talk about the tangible help to Afghanistan, there is one very important thing that we are actually I think forgetting. That is the political situation for Afghanistan. Providing all of this help, could be potential life risk for many women living out there. When we are doing these things, we should consider those things and think about how we could do some of potential support we are providing or empowerment we're doing in the sense it does not threaten their life. One of most important things will be instead of providing them with some of these help, good if we could provide them education opportunities. If there are like for example, schools or universities or some mentorship and some of these programs, that could help them to be empowered and that help themselves, that could be something more valuable than because some of these other things, of course they were enormously valuable, but they could also be threat to their life. Certain situations threat to their life. Working hidden, not part of government and political, no one is aware they were working. When we were helping them in these things, we are actually bringing them up to the front. And that could be potential risk for their lives and for the families' lives. I think it's more about how we could empower them in terms of education and in terms of giving them some skills, opportunities that they could help themselves. That could be more valuable. That's my opinion. Thank you.
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Thank you very much.
>> Thank you for bringing that up. Extremely good point. We want want to have anything negative. Thank you.
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Thank you very much.
>> ZHALA SARMAST: Thank you so much for sharing that. Great points. Great we have an A.I. expert in the room with us.
Yeah. I find that working with initiatives on ground has been the most helpful. So there are initiatives on ground that work within like different areas in landscape. Yes, it's dangerous. Yes, it's extremely risky. To be able to a little bit of progress, constantly growing up had to break rules in Afghanistan. That's a given unfortunately.
Very tangible thing that I think can make a lot of impact is not just working with women actually. Working with male of the families and just religious callers. You'll have to work with people that are of value that are respected, that are listened to across Afghanistan. For us, working on different digital literacy campaign or working with students on their college applications forms, et cetera, et cetera not just working with group of students themselves. But kind of like at the same time working with decisionmakers of the families or their brothers fathers. Et cetera. One thing critical to me in any work and need to be considered.
Lots of awareness, keeping in mind that Afghanistan is in the midst of humanitarian crisis. Lots of other priorities now that a lot of people are focusing on. Kind of addressed, open doors and give people space to think about some of the other things that are needed. Such as education, access to financial kind of opportunities, et cetera.
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Thank you very much. Very good from your experience. On the ground.
Questions or views, raised by the audience. Also the thing raised. Who can support the Afghan women in Afghanistan? Also, one of our audience said, from Nigeria, African country, woman and in Gaza, despite challenges they have, they're providing mentorship to the African woman. Considering current situation in Afghanistan, women totally banned, work, education, male dominant society.
How Afghan woman dare liberate internet and digital resources to overcome these challenges? To built like meaningful opportunities for themselves an community. This could be could be answered by Z A star, pointed points relevant as well as SUNAL. How impactful those solutions are or were for empower women to have access to education despite current situation we are experiencing right now. After this question, remind foundation colleagues, one of points raised, how can internet foundation put money in the Afghan community to empower. I think you already do this through digital. Like to have your view she shares her insight it's. Go to Zhala. Over to you.
>> ZHALA SARMAST: I think I'm going to get ‑‑ okay. I'm going to get up just to make sure everybody can hear me and we don't have a break. Would like the question that you raised, what can you do that is tangible. Often solutions are quite simple and they depend upon people and what people can do for each other.
Before I say that, I would say one of the goals we must remember when we are talking women in very fragile situations, is that we cannot do any harm. So I think the principle of do no harm must be the first principle that we follow. When we are thinking about any sort of solutions. For women in education. For economic empowerment and so on.
Having said that, I think we have talked about getting buy‑in from the community, from the decisionmakers, from men who are in power. But I also think we should not forget that women too have power. And how do we do that? So in this case, it's not just the power of one. Because that's often difficult. You may become a target. What you can do is peer‑to‑peer. That's possible. Can you set up systems so that girls and women can support each other? Having peer‑to‑peer strategies in your programs, in your solution I think absolutely important.
The other area is collective. When there is a voice of many women, that comes together, not one person is targeted. But collectively, collectively, they can advocate for what they want.
If you have 300 women entrepreneurs, force to reckon with. How can you create a peer‑to‑peer support? How can you create a collective for them?
I've done some evaluations for he is CAP in the region. One of the lessons we have learned. How do we support women? And how can women support each other? I think that is something we should not forget. Thank you.
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Over to you.
>> ZHALA SARMAST: Designing targeted digital literacy programs, requires a lot of different layers of considerations to deliver some impactful, to address the challenge again, very broad, but I think programs must be culturally sensitive and community oriented that would allow for engaging of stakeholders could include families and religious leaders and community leaders. This will build a lot of trust and encourage participation. I think in most of the work that I have done, in Afghanistan through media outlets, whether it's it been through tech platforms or UN agencies one thing we've constantly tried to integrate this inclusion of religious leaders and community leaders, because they're listened to and they can actually make a tangible impact.
Inclusion of those stakeholders to me is important and important strategy that can make quite a bit of a big impact.
Again I think inclusion of male allies, said before, brothers and fathers and husbands, also very, very crucial to encourage their support. Because they can actually really make an impact and kind of paying way to opening the way for their daughters and wives and sisters to get access to a lot of opportunity.
I think side from that, given logistical limitations, of course another concern, program focus on flexible and accessible delivery methods, how we're trying to ‑‑ trying to bring in real life examples of how we're trying to tackle with these challenges. Because I think they might be helpful.
How we're trying to do this is not just delivering whether it's animated content, educational kind of content online, but also, using brochures for instance, or banners across the countryside. In the rural areas where people don't necessarily have access to. Digital devices or internet or electricity that much. Taking into consideration I think logistical limitations is of course another big issue.
Security is of course the biggest consideration. We have to keep in mind that a lot of people in Afghanistan right now, putting their own lives at risk. But they are working with underground schools, working with incentives inside their houses, so if they can take that. Risk to allow other girls to GE access to educational opportunities we can take part contributing to that. Whether it's books, or however kind of content can be helpful to them.
Different kinds of things we can take into consideration. Keeping in mind logistical cultural, and other issues to be able to make tangible impact. Quite broad. So I can't fit in everything into one response.
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Thank you very much.
You like mentioned about censorship. Educational material. Find out about the involving of the religious scholars and providing content. Brochures or books. Whatsoever to Afghan woman and how to support them. Have access to education. Like you said, about censorship, not just about we say censorship. Doesn't mean only about internet. Officer line world, of course ban anyone especially the woman in Afghanistan to have access to those tangible assets including brochure and books. Do you think it will be impactful or at worst, to empower woman and to have access to education and as well as have access to the content which supports access to education?
>> SAJIA YARMAL: Thank you. I think to the last point, all solution, which everyone shares, powerful. But let's do not forget current situation in Afghanistan because when we are all proposing this solutions, so think about the situation. How can we provide solution and implement these solution we are proposing or talk about, even with the international communities because if there is a solution for Afghan woman regarding empowering woman in regards to education and et cetera, so we should keep in mind that these activities will be affected by Taliban government, groups which they have the power right now in Afghanistan. Without allowing or without allowance from these groups we cannot provide these solutions for Afghan woman. Living in Afghanistan.
Something online, ensure they have access to the internet. They have access to computers or laptops and they have opportunities to use online opportunities. Not sure where which they have these opportunities, so we cannot also be sure about the result of this solution. Which we are providing them or opportunity we are giving to Afghan women.
You mentioned censorship and special censorship in Afghanistan during this situation in Afghanistan. That is true. Censorship is quite large in Afghanistan right now. They are trying to sensor the contents, not only contents are, also sensor news agencies and reporters, which they were working currently in Afghanistan even in this whole situation. These restrictions make situation even harder for the people of Afghanistan especially woman in Afghanistan and if we do not focus making the current rule or government in Afghanistan responsible to answer for all the restrictions or all the things, rights they are denying, as a human rights or woman rights in Afghanistan, for women in Afghanistan, it won't work and it won't be as impactful as we are talking about as we are expecting from the international community.
So my point is to let's focus on, let's put pressure on the Taliban or on the group which they are in power right now in Afghanistan, and let's make them responsible to accept women really as part of society, to accept and to give them opportunity to grow up, women in Afghanistan do not need support of anyone else with them have the opportunity, or when the atmosphere is really for them to grow up.
When there is opportunity and when is good atmosphere, to grow up, so they can do it buy by themselves. Of course international community can help with funding, project or develop project, but still, woman are able in Afghanistan or capable to work by themselves and to achieve their goals, what they have. But international community can only make the Taliban responsible for their acts, for denying rights of women, for denying human rights in Afghanistan. Thank you.
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: I would like to you to community aspects. I'm not touching on the political side. But in terms of like technical capabilities, the mandate of taking the international community to empower, women, have access to education, like Anja mentioned. Specifically for the Afghan woman, what is your point of view, how can the international community support Afghan woman to have access to education and as well as' access to the technology and internet what is your point of view outside Afghanistan and working with international organizations? Specifically like foundation, before I said like foundation rules, and supporting the education in Afghanistan and you're currently running digital project. Would like to hear your insights and views on this.
>> ANJA GENGO: Thank you so much. As the internet foundational force wonderful ‑‑ can you hear me. Foundational force. Wonderful we're being able to see as many community oriented as many sort of initiatives across the board. Whether it's with women and girls, whether it's it with participant and increasing representation in the technical community, et cetera. But I believe in you're talking about Afghan women and girls, need to, lots of girls are not going to be you enough. We need systemic structural changes and we need to have a whole of society approach to that.
For different players to come in, what they can, what they're good at, what their expertise is, we'll need to work in lock step. We need to work with one another, to be able to understand what sort of capabilities can be contributed, how these pieces fit in.
My colleague it would be helpful to bring in devices? Sure. What about the normative attitudes and beliefs that would prevent the use of such devices I don't think infrastructure on its own would mean anything until and unless we're also structurally working alongside government as much as we may not want to, but we do need to work with government to make sure that women are allowed to be participants in the economy because to my previous point as well, I think that benefits everyone. That not just benefits women and girls gender‑diverse people benefit men, boys, society et cetera. We need to be advocating for equal participation in society in the economy because I feel like human rights argument even though we believe in it, even though we want to advocate in favor of human rights, gender rights, et cetera I feel like practically as is the case with my country, seem to lost the plot there. Seem to have lost that. We have. I mean, we have lost that plot there.
If governments need to be partnered with, if we want to partner with governments, the narrative and belief system have to be grounded in human rights. Absolutely. But we also need to be sure that we are offering governments, companies private sectors, technical communities, Civil Society, what they need. The government wants to see thriving economy. Sure. Let's invite women in and unlock their economic potential see how they can participate in the economy and go from there.
We perhaps need to sort of ground this and understand this from a gaps, if we want to partner with different stakeholders. We can play to their narrative without losing ours. What we want. I'm sure that is not going to be simple you know, endeavor. Not going to be a simple, quite challenging. To work with government that we have. Afghanistan in the moment.
If we are lookinging systemic structural changes go beyond individual efforts, community efforts, not that I'm discounting those at all, we need to be ‑‑ understand how we can get stakeholders to buy into this gender because the first question every stakeholder asks is what is in it for me? Why is it that I should support this vision?
Controversial thought. But I leave it at that.
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Thank you very much. Great people. Great thoughts. Do you want to add something as you're leading the project of digital, about your work in Afghanistan? Can you help me pass the mic, please? Thank you.
>> OMAR ANSARI: Can he hear me? Introduce myself. Omar Ansari. Leading project digital Leap. Economic foundation investment. Project aims to develop capacity of network engineers help them learn now skills. Community building bring in people to share experiences and learn from each other. Support local national guys, operating groups. And other similar gatherings and platforms. So Digital Leap, when we started the first cohort in 2023, we had nine women from Afghanistan. Networking engineers.
2024, we have only four women in Afghanistan. This means that number is decreasing. First year we had more women working in networking engineering for example. Trained in ICT in the past. Today, since the university closed, women cannot go to school beyond grade 6. Means that gradually, reducing in number.
Four girls. It was very hard for me to see not being able to school in Afghanistan. I had to move out. I was forced to move out. Now, in one of my girls, age nine, was running YouTube channel. If was called the workshop. Making robots. Little moving devices. She just got admitted at course on robotics. She was very excited about this certification. Told them she will be in January. Afghan women, aftermen and women both, in general, they have a lot of talent. They lived in society that was affected by war for decades. But they have learned how to be resilient. And the resilience that was shown by the Afghan internet community and past couple of years, from falling down to raising up again, it was quite a journey. Lima is one of our participants from last year. She's been leading many others like school on internet governance of Afghanistan. If they're provided with opportunity, they can accel. They can. They cannot only contribute to the local socioeconomic development and be active in their own societies and have good lives and contribute to families but they can also be participants of the global development processes.
Definitely, it's not just something that Afghans would be able to do it alone. As suggested by the panel, we need international friends and allies to we can work together. Issue for all of us to address.
The foundation has really good plans for the future of the region. Internet programs. We cover 56 economies across Asia‑Pacific and APNIC, APNIC Foundation, so he's very excited about this session. And we have four more sessions coming up. So probably pass.
>> DR. FARZANEH BADIEI: First would like to acknowledge all ‑‑
>> First I would like to acknowledge all speakers we have we talked about getting people here. Some of them couldn't make it here. Due to some of this long is particulars issues we've had. So to your point, something I wanted to point out, the worlder moving on to something else. Problems in Afghanistan have probably getting worse in some ways.
It's credit to my team that they've been able to pull off what they've done in Afghanistan and part South Asia. Simple thing, sending ‑‑ not just other structural issues. International financial system. Doesn't even allow to us send money to Afghanistan.
My colleagues, the few that we've managed to get to Saudi Arabia for this event, trial an tribulations my team went, done, those lives in advanced economy. We have it easy. But just even getting money to get on a plane, it's not easy for some our colleagues in some parts of world.
I think needs to be one we should not forget that when there is conflict and issues that arise in countries, then create conflict, what happens to those we've forgotten? Don't forget issue in Afghanistan. That women are still suffering. Three women on this the screen you see there couldn't make it Riyadh, they are doing even though they're not, got my colleagues here from Afghanistan. Been a solid supporter and fa fact runs the program. At the APNIC foundation. Yes, help is need. Things you are able to support us, please. We would love to see how we could work and do., much more, but of course, we have to do it taking into account, can't just parachute in and do stuff and leave. That doesn't quite work and feature does it scale.
I see ladies holding up the sign which means I should shut up. I'll hand it back to you. We still have a lot of work to do in South Asia. And Afghanistan in particular. Some other economies as well. We have our new strategy, just in fortunately racial at the moment. Coming, what we're doing and perhaps come partner. Difference we make. One thing I would like to say, more about action, not words. So what we do is not long narratives an speeches. So I'll stop there. Thank you.
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Thank you. Thank you very much. Background of applause ‑‑ big round of applause to all of our speakers. Audience. Panelists. Moderators. Speakers. Everyone. Thank you very much. It was very pleasure you are to having you all. Really appreciate dedicated precious time to attend the session and share your views an insights. It was really good to have you all. Think we are done with the amount of time. Thank you very much and thanks to the APNIC Foundation for organizing this beautiful session. At the end of request for group photo. Thank you. Bye.
>> ABDUL GHAYOOR BAWARY: Someone has something to say. I'll pass the mic.
>> Hello. Sorry. Mary from United States. in room, about woman in Afghanistan. Please allow me to also speak about women would face similar challenge to Afghanistan women. Women in Afghanistan face similar to ours. Our situation is different we are a democratic country where men and women equal rights. However, women still face challenge in accessing education, technology, jog job opportunities rural areas. Program has been granted. Greatly supported women like me in I.T. Kindly request to listen to continue this program, it has made a significant difference in our lives. I also ask people listen to woman implementing more programs. Thank you.