IGF 2024-Day 1 - Workshop Room 3 - DC-Interplanetary Toward the Interplanetary Internet -the digital governance--- RAW

The following are the outputs of the captioning taken during an IGF intervention. Although it is largely accurate, in some cases it may be incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors. It is posted as an aid, but should not be treated as an authoritative record.

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>> Good afternoon.  As often with the first session in the split rooms, it is...   we have some details to fix.  I hope I can    I hope everybody can hear me.

Remotely, I mean.

>> YOSUKE KANAKO: Yes, we can.

>> Okay.

So this is the session.

...

(silence)

>> VINTON CERF: We can hear you.  Go ahead Roberto.  It is Vint Cerf.

>> ROBERTO GAETANO: Okay.  I can see you can hear me.  I was apologising for the delay.  This is the first session in the split rooms, and we had some setup problems.  This is the dynamic coalition for interplanetary networks.  And we will be talking about the interplanetary networks.

And having a focus on the internet governance.  The first speaker is Vint Cerf.  That doesn't need an introduction.  He will talk about the origin of the project, why the interplanetary networks are important and what were the whereabouts that brought to the start of this project.

Vicinity you have the floor.

>> VINTON CERF: Thank you Roberto.  And good afternoon everyone.  I'm speaking to you from Washington, D.C.  In my basement office.  It is a pleasure to join you.  I just wish I could be there in person.

Let me just give you a brief history of this project.  Interplanetary communication really starts back in 1964 when the deep space network was built by NASA.  With the intend that these large 70 metre antennas be used to communicate with spacecraft that could go anywhere in the solar system and perhaps even beyond.  As some of you know, there are two spacecraft that are well outside of the solar system now.  Voyager 1 and voyager 2.

The space programme continued landings on the moon happened and so on.  By 1997, a path finder project successfully landed a small rover on Mars.  The so called Sojourner.

There has been another successful landing in 1976 after two Viking spacecraft.  And then for 20 years nothing worked.  It was very exciting to see the Sojourner land successfully on Mars.  And I was so excited about it, I flew out to the jet propulsion laboratory in California to meet with the team that was handing communications for the 1997 Sojourner mission.

And at this point, several of us began speculating about what we should be doing that we are going to need 25 years later.  And we concluded that we should start on the design and implementation of a solar system internet.

So that project has been going on for 26 years now.  In the 2010s, the project expanded outside of NASA and included the Japanese space agency JAXA, the Korean and the European space ages.  And since that time, the 10s and 2020s, the four space agencies have been collaborating together with the consultative committee on space data systems.

Their primary focus of attention has been on the design of a new suite of protocols called the bundle protocols, to overcome some of the challenges of deep space operation.  We'll hear considerably more about that from my colleagues.

The reason I wanted to take this moment for preamble is also to say that the reason that we're at the internet governance forum is because governance has become a very critical part of the project.

As we look towards commercialisation, and many of you are well aware that there are commercial Companies.  Spacex, for example, and Intuitive Machines to name two.  They are actively pursuing entities in space.  In particular, NASA has offered to purchase equipment, rovers, habitats and the like.  And even to buy the product of mining on the moon.  And it is the consequence of commercialisation which leads us to the importance of governance.

And so the point of this session in part is to bring you up to speed on where we are technically.  And also the demands that we now foresee for governance as a consequence of commercialisation.

So that concludes my little preamble.  Let's move onto the next speaker.

>> ROBERTO GAETANO: Okay.  Thank you vicinity for your introduction.  Now I'll give the floor to Kaneko Yosuke, the chair of the IPNSIG.  Which will talk about the activities of the IPNSIG and how the work proceeds.  Kaneko you have the floor.

>> YOSUKE KANAKO: Good afternoon everyone.  I'm sitting in Washington, D.C. as well.  And I hope I had joined you in Riyadh, but unfortunately I'll be connecting remotely today.  It is a pleasure to be here.  And good afternoon everyone.

To whom every made it to this session.

As vicinity just set the floor, I want to briefly kind of address the concept of the interplanetary internet a bit more in detail.  For some of you this might sound like a science fiction.  But this concept, the interplanetary internet has been around for quite some time.  As vicinity just mentioned.

And many of the space agencies around the world have been putting a tremendous effort into turning this concept into reality.  Today we stand on the cusp of an exciting reentry into space exploration again.  We're heading back to the moon, more than 25 years after the first inception of the interplanetary internet concept.

And over 50 years since the U.S. Apollo mission first landed human on the moon back in 1969.  And this time for our next visit to the moon we are going with international partnership and along with the industry.  And this is absolutely the way the interplanetary internet will also be built.

And it will advance with the private sectors involvement from its early stages of development.  And we really want to realise a common and open and shared network infracture, even in interplanetary space.  Is next slide please.

One of the examples towards this endeavour will be the luna net.  Which is an acronym of lunar internet.  A collaborative architecture and framework to provide communication.  And also positioning and navigation services for activities on the lunar surface.

So the lunanet will essentially become the foundational infrastructure for us to communicate with the astronauts and the moon and the infrastructure that we deploy on the lunar surface.  And development is actually moving forward, along with the industry.  Specifically with the recently selected intuitive machines towards this endeavour.

And next slide please.

So in order to build this interplanetary internet in space, we kind of asked ourselves:  What are the key governance principles that we need to pay attention to?  And what are the lessons we can learn from history of the internet?  And the evolution of internet governance.

The general approach we sought about was to inherit the good lessons and the good DNA that's matured over the long history of the internet to the model of the interplanetary internet.

Next slide please.

Our dynamic coalition came up with several key principles that might inform the future of the interplanetary internet.  And I would imagine that you would see some very familiar language in here such as having a common way of doing things.  We know we need technical approaches like communication protocols and standards to realise interplanetary networking.  Similar to how PCPIP became the global standard for every transmission on this planet.

And oh open forums, such as the mechanisms we have at the IETF will become a real critical enablerrer.

And the hierarchal management the way we manage will also become an important aspect in space networking architecture.  And of course the multi stakeholder policy making process, which is probably the most important part they want to emphasise today.  Is a unique governance model, which is at the heart of internet governance.

And to me, this was really made the internet so successful.  And sustainable.  As we know it today.

So we consider this as a critical DNA that we want to inherit from the internet toward the longevity, the sustainability of this network infrastructure in space.

Next slide please.

Regarding, talking a little about the technical aspects.  When we're talking about interplanetary communications, there is basically two major problems that needs to be solved.  Problem number 1 is that the speed of light is too slow.  It takes 20 minutes to send a signal to Mars.  And another 20 minimize to get a reply back.  So you need to compensate somehow with these high delays.

And then the second problem is planetary motion.  The earth and the moon and the planets always move around.  So sometimes we call this orbital mechanics.  And that means that a spacecraft can easily hide behind a planet, and your communication can be easily disrupted.  So TCPIP doesn't work very well in these scenarios.

So these issues need to be addressed technically.

And there is a technology called the DTN.  And the bundle particle that vicinity just mentioned is one of the protocols suites that implement this is networking technology.  And I think you will hear from my next speaker on the developments of DTN.

And I think I have one more chart and that should be the last.  And I want to draw your attention to the governance report we published last year.  It gives more details on our thinking process and recommendations on how to approach governance in the interplanetary internet.

You can also find a postcard of our dynamic coalition if you go to our booth at the venue.  So don't miss that as well.  And I'll stop here and turn it over to Roberto.

>> ROBERTO GAETANO: Thank you Kaneko.  Also for making my task easier.  Because now sma doesn't need to have any introduction.  He'll bring us back to earth and explain why people should care about this.  And this is not so abstract and far away how it looks.  Samo, you have the floor.

>> SAMO GRASIC: Thank you Roberto.  And welcome everybody.  My my name is Samo Grasic.  Currently the lead of the pilot project working group.  Part of the interplanetary special interesting group.  And I tell you my slides after the experience I got.  Quite often people are asking people, you know, this is very futuristic.  Kind of weird looking really far in the future.  Why does this concern me?

So I will try to maybe very briefly address this question by maybe just explaining DTN bundle protocol and what it can do of.  One of the very important aspects sometimes a bit overlooked when we talk about DTN as building block for interplanetary internet is actually the aspect that this is an overlay network protocol.

Which means that in this case, I would like to illustrate., for instance, we can actually DTN bundle over today's internet.  We can use regular links as we do right now.  We can actually    yeah.  We can use it for high speed, high bandwidth links.  Optical links.  So it is actually quite universal.

Of course we can use it as well for the deep space where we have quite limited resources, limited bandwidth.  Really high delays.  Lot of disruptions.  It can handle deep space because it was    yeah, initially designed for.

And then I would like to move to a bit more unconventional maybe links in ways of communication that is used today.  For instance, there is a photo there down with snow mobile and antenna stached.  So this is from the project I worked where we used Laura radio links to cover really long distances in northern Sweden.  Where we basically entire network in very nomadic fashion so people can move this network.

And yeah.  So this population of (?) is actually adopted the technology and can actually benefit from it today.  They can actually track the reindeer.  And exchange messages with each other.  Even in areas where they don't have conventional internet technology.

I would like go bit further back in time.  Other project we work with actually with same population.  We actually use the helicopter as a data mule.  We had kind of small devices, put them on helicopter and this helicopters actually flying in and out to this really remote villages that are still today not covered with conventional internet.

And people are able to send messages.  It was maybe 6 7 hours of delay for every message we sent.  But it is better than nothing.

And then I would like to kind of finish with two maybe a bit more obscure kind of transfer of data, for instance.  You know, having (?) and carry it around or large storage devices.  Amazing how much can actually do if   .  It is actually really high bandwidth option.  And yeah.  DTN bundle protocol can actually handle that.

The last is just for illustrative purposes.  I think we can use DTN over the smoke signal.  Back in time, we can apply it in action thinking about developing smoke modulator that would (?).  And why is this important?  Why is this overlay characteristic so important?

On a top of the slide, you can actually see some of the potential users of this technology.  And of course space industry is one first one that comes to mind.  As already mentioned before.  Mining, surely something that is going to be probably actually really soon.  And I think this is point in time where actually there is lot of commercialisation happening in space.  And sure this will be very actual.

Mentioned previously this remote areas.  And all the people that can actually benefit in this.  Logistics is one of this is and, this case we have photo scientist collecting the data from the probe.  And this is where I think in my personal opinion, magic happens when it comes to DTN.  Because we can really seamlessly actually connect any of these users together.  If you are a scientist collecting data from the (?) somewhere using the stick and carrying it.  If you apply bundle protocol I actually use it, for instance, to collect data from the deep space probe.

So it is like using the same tool sync software you are using to collect the data from one, you can actually use it from that.  And if you envision, for instance, how the mining industry might move to the space.  As we get more and more commercial actors, they will probably not be skilled in deep space communication.  And applying DTN for their services or impact today, they can use them and harden them and then in future when the time will come, they can actually simply apply this technology into space communication.  Space applications.

So this is kind of brief to how I want.  Can I illustrate benefits of DTN from (?) perspective.

My next slide is about the pilot project working group, what we do there.  How we can join.  So one of the main objective of the pilot project working group is to actually build operational DTN network.  Using actual machines, actual protocols and actually spread it globally.

It is quite an interesting exercise it's actually brings in many issues that maybe was not really kind of foreseen at the beginning but it brings different issues from technical.  We need to adopt, change protocols, sometimes get new mechanisms to, for instance, get a neighbour discovery.  To mitigate some of the bad kind of practises maybe from the building the internet.

So we are currently in a stage where we're building kind of second generation of our network where we kind of adapt and build more mechanisms.  And we do cover entire globe.  So we kind of circles here.  And colleagues.  In Saudi, I think going to appear next week.

And all this force us to actually develop certain or actually put some of even the governance issues.  For instance, right now we're actually trying to get the IPN.

Now we're trying to find how we will actually distribute this IPN numbers.  And for that we will need to set up administrative authorities.  So there is certainly governmental issues that needs to be addressedded.

In the group, if you Johnny the group, you can actually get the free IPN this number.  So if you want to join.  We're developing, actually adding services as well to it.  We're trying different services, development the internet services we know from today from the internet and make them compatible so they can actually run more the DTN.

Some of the (?) with the (?) that was actually part of it.  We have some central networks that we're developing.  DTN has quite bit possibly.  And low power applications.  Don't need to be online.  Radios all the time.  If you synchronize you can greatly reduce the power consumption.

And the main, the most, the biggest thing I think in this group is actually we're having a regular meetings every maybe once, twice per month.  And I would really kindly invite you to partake in these meetings, especially if you are more interested in technologies.

And this group of people that we're kind of having right now is actually they are coming from space industry, from academia, from many different backgrounds.  So it is real nice environment if you actually want to be kind of introduced to the networks.

With this I will hand back the microphone to Roberto.  Thank you.

>> ROBERTO GAETANO: And that is a physical handing over.

The last speaker of the session is professor Mohammed Saleem.

>> Thank you.  Very nice introduction.  I am professor of electrical and computer engineering at king Abdullah science technology.  And hold Unesco share focusing on connecting the unconnected.  Now you may ask yourself how does this relate to session and interplanetary communication.

The fact is as Samo explained, when we talk about interplanetary communication, just because of the very basic law of physics, you have to deal with delay.  Example he gave excellent example.  (?) need 250 minutes to reach Mars.  Another 20 minimize to get back the signal.  So 40 minute delay.

And current terrestrial developed networking protocols are essentially has to be modified, adapted, upgraded to be able to meet this.  Now how can we take advantage of this, you know, technologies that have been developed for this?  It can be used actually for very basic problems that we deal with in the earth.  To connect some of the unconnected villages.  Assuming you have remote village, hard to reach area.  Have realtime connectivity is not possible because we don't have enough funding to is satellite link.  We don't have microwave link.

Now can we still have a light version of internet?  And solution is yes.  One of my Ph.D students has worked on how to develop non real time, they are called the digital education layer library.  So we can think of schools in these villages who have let's say, maybe some of you know Khan academy.  Khan academy, you can download and ib stall in the village.  But of course it is updated on daily basis.  Villages may not update on a daily basis.  But can take advantage of like Samo mentioned some form of transportation system.  Can be bus, can be helicopters.  If you are on island can be the ships that visit the island every now and then.

And updates over the local network can be done through the mules visiting the island.  And here we're using delay term networking protocols and paradigm to make sure we're getting the local internet in this case proxy on education as an example deployed for developed for interplanetary science can be used for very basic needs to connect unconnected and hard to reach areas.

Second example and when we talk about connect and unconnected, we're not talking about only about connecting people.  We are also talking about connecting all kind of IOT device.

In many case you don't have the infrastructure again to collect information in real time.  It is costly.  It is complex.  So let's assume you are trying to monitor particular environment for prediction of let's say disaster, natural disasters.  So    devices in hard to reach areas and need to capitalise on some kind of (?) basically come ever on a periodic fashion.  So basically very small fraction of time where you have visibility or we have access to thesal device.  And essentially you will be able to pick the information and update information.  Not real time information will be obtained but many application absolute needed, able to collect data and predict events.

Third and last example I would like to share with you and actually very nice complement to this session which is focusing on interplanetary science, is the underwater world.

You probably know earth is covered 73% of earth is covered by water.  And I was told less than 10% of understood award world discovered.  So lot of engineering to be done to learn about this world.  And of course communication.  Underwater communication is a big part of discovering the underwater world.  And here we have again fizz takes comes into play.

Why physics.  To actually communicate under water is quite challenging.  There are two approach.  The optical approach is very limited.  Few hundred metres.  High speed relatively speaking but only few hundred metres that is the range you can get.

Or you can use acoustic communication.  Can give you bigger range.  But we are talking only about few hundred to couple of thousand metres of range.  That is all.

So when you are trying to discover this huge ocean, essentially you will have to rely also in many case for inspiration and (?) to embed some sensors and accentuators and to visit these sensors through AUVs and ROVs and underwater submarines and collect and receive using delayed network.  So another example why DTN can be applied.

And just to finalise my kind of intervention here, what are the other related technologies?

When you talk about DTN and connecting these kind of remote device, energy efficiency is important aspect.  Sometimes you can have access to solar panel above water.  But nonetheless you may want to be even more energy efficient.  So one technology that is very popular in this concept is wakeup receiver.  Wakeup receiver is essentially when you throw ILT device or sensors into middle of nowhere and you want to be in sleep mode most of the time.  Just collect information on a schedule.  And then when event of communication happens, you have to wake them up.  And basically through acoustic mode, underwater optical if underwater or RF above water or optical also above water.  And basically wake them up.  Sometimes charge them.  Use laser source or RF source to charge the device and collect the information that has been basically gathered over the weeks or even month if you are visiting that location in a very rare fashion is so DTN is excellent paired.  But also wireless power transfer and wake up receiver is another very important technologies in this context.

Thank you.

>> ROBERTO GAETANO: Thank you professor Saleem.

Before giving the floor for questions.  There are two consideration I would like to make.  The first is it seems that when we are thinking about the internet world, or what we are doing is is to get bigger throughput, faster speed.  Everything in an instant mode where we are continuously connected, continuously online.

And we are probably losing site of the benefit of using technologies that don't give instant response and don't give those big throughputs.  That that can better serve situations or remote populations that live in underserved areas.  Or solve specific problems that cannot be solved via a bidirectional immediate connection.

And I think that this field has not been explored enough.  And I would welcome further research in this area and not in what is the    not just in the mainstream internet.  And this is by the way what universities likal (?) is doing.  What are working on.  And that is the first consideration.

The second one is you might wonder since we're here in the IGF and the IGF is basically about internet governance.  How all this relates to internet governance.

The question is if I can make a quickal (?) between the development of what is now the traditional internet and these two technologies is that in the beginning the internet was also developed by scientists and was regarding only some niche situation.  And then all of a sudden there were the importance, the commercial importance of the internet came up.  And all of a sudden we sort of woke up and we realise that we needed governance model for bringing together different interests.  And develop a framework where every stakeholder has the possibility to present their positions and their needs.

And I fear that the same is going to happen with satellite communication, interplanetary network.  There is a lot of satellites already.  And there is a lot all right of commercial interests.  And I wonder if in discussing a future asset also in terms of governance, of this environment, there are some stakeholder groups that are maybe missing because they will be late in realising that they have still an interest in how things go.  I'm thinking about internet users that will be the last to realise that they have to do something in order to get into the governance of satellite communication.  Or for other aspects.

So this is why we are bringing this themes to the attention or of the internet governance bodies.  And that is why we are here at the IGF to try to start thinking about these things before it is too late and before having to catch up in the    in a hurry and under stress.

I see a hand up from Vint Cerf.  And vicinity, you have the floor.

>> VINTON CERF: Thank you very much for that last point Roberto about why are we at the IGF?  I wanted to reinforce your observation.  Also, I wanted to mention that, Saleem mentioned the use of DTN under water.

We have done some tests probably more than a decade ago using acoustic communications under water and the DTN protocols, just for your information.

The reason that we're at IGF is because we expect the interplanetary network to be built by multiple parties in the same way that the terrestrial internet is built by multiple parties.  And we have to manage and govern that collaborative effort.  It will be similarly needed in the deep space efforts.

The other thing which I think is very important is that the commercialisation of space exploration and space habitation and space use creates an interesting challenge.  Those of you who are aware will know that there is an outer space treaty.  In 1967, which said no one is allowed to own anything off of the earth.  You can't    there is no place to register a mine on the moon, for example.

You can own the equipment that you place on the moon.  But you are not allowed to own the property.

My guess is that that will become somewhat difficult.  And at some point we're going to have to be speaking to this question of ownership and commercialisation.  The question then will be where do you register any ownership?  How do you resolve disputes?  What is the jurisdiction in which these disputes get resolved?

We don't have good answers to that.  But we think the IGF is a good place to raise the questions.  Because that is where multi stakeholder deliberations take place.  And the internet gives us at least some guidance and experience in solving those problems.

So we expect to be a regular feature of the IGF as the rest of the years UNFOLD.

Thank you very much.

>> ROBERTO GAETANO: Thank you vicinity.  And I think we hope to get involved in this question that also legal on the outer space.  Now may I ask if there are questions from the floor?

>> VINTON CERF: Kaneko has his hand up by the way.

>> ROBERTO GAETANO: Sorry, I don't have at a turn of the screen.  Sorry Kaneko.  So you are the first in line and then I have other contributions from the floor.

>> YOSUKE KANAKO: Yes.  I just wanted to kind of supplement on what Vinton just said.  We do have the outer space treaty.  Inaugurated in 19   .  Even though it is a private sectors activity.  That is the current space regime we live today.  As I mentioned the lunar surface would become a hodgepodge of multiple stakeholder activity.  So in the end we're just talking about interplanetary internet for now.  But I would just urge everyone to think about that the actual lunar surface venue will become a multi stakeholder activity venue in itself.  So the interplanetary internet is just one of the aspects we're looking at right now.  So just want to make a brief excellent on that.

>> ROBERTO GAETANO: Kaneko.  I see we have two questions from the floor.

>> Good afternoon.  My name is Phillips sans, I'm hered the Brazilian youth programme from the Brazilian internet (?).  And I'm also software developer.  And I have the following discussions of internet governance for some time.  I had privilege in attending IGF2022.  Where several important topics were discussed.

Building on those discussion, I'd like to bring up some points connecting with these exciting interplanetary internet governance.  In 2022 strong focus was placed on either digital divides or (?).

Reach in underserved regions.  Apply to development to interplanetary internet to be sure that its infrastructures and benefits are equitably shared and not just among the space fairing nations but for collective advancement of humanity.

>> ROBERTO GAETANO: Thank you for the question.  I think that probably Vint or Kaneko will answer that.

>> VINTON CERF: It is Vint.  Kaneko probably has answer as well.  First the reason we're doing this network is very pragmatic.  We need it in order to run the various spacecraft to gather data back from them and to send commands.

But also to link habitats and laboratories on the moon and Mars and possibly the asteroids in the future.

So we need that communication system.  But we also are doing it in the same spirit as the original internet design, which was intended to be very collaborative.  And remember, that the information that is gathered through the deep space network can be made available to everyone on planet earth by means of its terrestrial internet.

So the theory behind all this is to network everything and provide equal access to shareable information.  For everyone who could use it.

So I'm glad that you brought it up.  I think our general view that the information gathered from space exploration should be broadly available both for scientific reasons and increasingly for commercial reasons.

I will say however, that deep space communication is expensive.  It is not nearly as richly outfitted as the terrestrial internet.  So it may be that there have to be constraints on who has access to the deep space component of the interplanetary internet.  I think we're not ready for 8.2 billion people sending their cat pictures through to Mars, for example.

So there will probably be limitations on who has access directly to the deep space network or the interplanetary network.  Buts results should be broadly available terrestrially.  Kaneko maybe you have more elaboration on that?

>> ROBERTO GAETANO: Yes, Kaneko, if you have something to add, may I ask questions and answers to be sure they have four other people queuing up for questions.

>> YOSUKE KANAKO: Okay.  I'll make it quick then.

So basically I completely agree with the comment.  There is going to be these discussions on digital governance in the interplanetary internet.  And I think we should really learn from these histories from back in 2002.

And commonality of the infrastructure.  And equitable access, I think these are really key principles that we need to purse for the interplanetary internet.  And as far as how we can bring the non space fairing nations into this endeavour is that we have various forums in space.  Like, the copious is one of them.  Like the United Nations committee on peaceful uses of space ware.  The nation states show up and talk about policies and rule making and information sharing.  So these could be one of the venues that the non space fairing countries can join and actually information can be exchanged.  And can become    can have access to these common infrastructure.

So I think these are steps that we can take for now, as of now.  And I think we should advance that.  In the future.

>> ROBERTO GAETANO: Thank you Kaneko.  You have the floor.

>> Thank you very much.  My name is ALKA, working for KPMG and    (?).  I do really understand the need for governance of the interplanetary internet.  While we've seen in the past and for sure we must have debate about that.  However what more difficulty with understanding is how can we make the delay from 40 minutes to a fraction?

Is that a possibility?

Or is that not even possible?  And do we have to deal with that?  Because I'm a quite impatient person.  And I don't want to wait 40 minutes for my cat picture to be sent into space.

Thanks.

>> VINTON CERF: It is Vint.  You can see Kaneko and I are both laughing.  Unfortunately, Dr. Einstein has pretty much prevented us from solving the problem you pose.

The speed of light is finite.  And as far as we know, we don't now how to make photons run faster than the speed of light.  The consequence of this is that the delay is inescapable.

And before you decide that entangled photoens will solve the problem, let me tell you that doesn't work either.  Despite the fact that entanglement may be distance independent, you can't use that for communication.  You can only get correlation out of it.  So I'm terribly sorry to tell you that we can't solve your problem with today's physics.

>> ROBERTO GAETANO: So can we go to the next question?  If you can come here, then you can use one of our microphones.

>> Hello.  Thank you so much.  Excellent presentation.  I'm canbar from United Kingdom foreign ministry.  This is quite new so me so I'm soaking it up.  But wondering to what extent are you factoring into account the human rights elements of the sort of future interplanetary internet?  This.

Is that something which you think is relevant at this stage?  If so, what are the key considerations which you need the multi stakeholder community to help you on?

Thank you.

>> ROBERTO GAETANO: Maybe I can say a word on this.

Yes.  This is the main reason why we would like to bring this to the attention of the internet governance forum.  And to the internet governance organisations.  So that we can, you know, have a debate on this and make sure that the human rights are taken care in the development of a policy.

Thank you for the question.

Is there any...   Vint, do you want to take this question as well?

>> VINTON CERF: Yes, I would thank you.  Just very briefly.

Keep in mind that the architecture of the interplanetary network is intentionally open.  It is designed to allow multiple parties to participate, to implement and share resources.

However I want to emphasise the resources of the deep space network or the interplanetary network will probably be quite limited, at least in the early days.

So we have to be very careful not to accidentally assume that human rights means everyone on the planet has access to and the use of    direct use, of these assets.

Instead, I think we have to make sure that they have access to the product that is carried to earth through the deep space network.  But not necessarily everyone will have direct access to it.  Because of its limited capacity.

>> SAMO GRASIC: Very short comment my side as well.  I think good with the internet or interplanetary architecture is by definition it is kind of distributed.  It is probably very hard to centralize in a way.  That we centralize internet today.  So one interesting aspect to look into.

>> ROBERTO GAETANO: Thank you.  Two more questions.  Lets be sure I already had the 5 minutes flag raised.

>> Hell everyone.  Allen VE    work for the Brazilian space agency.  Advisor there.  And also part of the youth programme from Brazil.  My question would be actually it has already been addresseddal about how do we get other nations to this project.  Because if you count, there are only handful of nations that owns the capacity to develop this project and to participate.

So I would like to if possible to elaborate more on that.  But bringing in the international cooperation as a principle to the project, to the five principals that you mentioned before.  And also I have a question that maybe is more technical, related to the tenability.  Because we know that, I think that radio frequencies are a limited resource.  So I don't know if there are some key considerations that we must acknowledge on this project while addressing the interplanetary internet.

Thank you.

>> ROBERTO GAETANO: Who takes this short question?

>> VINTON CERF: It is Vint.  Just very quickly.  The network is intentionally designed so that multiple parties can implement and operate it.

I would also point out to you that the consultative committee on space data systems, unless I've missed my guess, is open to participation.  Even by countries that don't necessarily already have lift capacity.

The other reason that this is getting better is that lift capacity is now commercially available through SpaceX and others.

As a consequence of that, countries that normally would not have space capability now have the potential for participating.  Either by directly accessing lift capacity from companies like SpaceX and others.  Or by collaborating with others in order to share that capacity.  So between that and the notion of a shareable deep space network, it feels to me like countries that don't currently have space capability have an opportunity to participate.

>>     second question.  Scarcability and    (?) but typically for interplant by communication, my best knowledge, or what we can go for deep space optics.  Basically using the optical band of the spectrum, which plenty still at least of available wavelength and to be used.  So I don't think we have problem from that perspective.  Or explanetary communication.

>> ROBERTO GAETANO: Thank you Saleem.  Next question.

>> VINTON CERF: Kaneko has hand up.

>> ROBERTO GAETANO: Briefly.

>> YOSUKE KANAKO: Yeah.  Just briefly.  I wand to add on the capacity building part.  IPNSIG.org, we have a full repository how DTN works and what the interplanetary network is and it is all free for use.

So this is a good source for people to e join this endeavour.  And regarding the lunar frequency you just mentioned.  There is a resolution at the WRC last year to the lunar frequencies.  And I think this is going to be a top of the agenda for the upcoming WRC in '27.  So just a quick note on that.

>> ROBERTO GAETANO: Thank you Kaneko.

So next question.

>> Thank you very much.  Thank you very much for that wonderful presentation.  My name is Kunleolunadar from Nigeria.  And member of special interest group in space (?) Nigeria.  And I've been following this discussion, this conversation and I'm happy you are discussing this even at the level of IGF because it is one thing we need take a deep look a at.

And I'm happy that the lunar frequency, because it is one of those issues that really matter WRC by the way.  I'm member of the agenda.

So my question, because I'm so much excited about the discussion and I think (?) which some of us will be able to contribute to, you know, the working group.  I want to find out if I want to join the working group, is this something one can come on board for?

Thank you very much.

>> VINTON CERF: Yes.

>> VINTON CERF: The chairman of the group is Samo.  So you need to talk to him.

>> ROBERTO GAETANO: Okay.  Maybe if you can take this, the answer offline.  Because we are out of question.

I will threshold there are also some cards explanatory of what is our activity that they are in the booth of the dynamic coalitions.

We don't have time for wrap up.  So we just...

>> Very quickly.  So if you go into the IPN signal to work page and cheque the project working group.  You can just join in, actually partake.  It is open and free.  We welcome everyone.

People interested in space that would like to get their hands dirty with the technology.

>> ROBERTO GAETANO: Thank you all for coming.  We had an almost full room.  So, thank you for coming.  And enjoy the rest of the conference.

>> Thank you all.

>> YOSUKE KANAKO: Thank you everyone.

>> VINTON CERF: Well done Kaneko.  And Samo and Roberto.  And Saleem.  Thank you so much.

See you on the net.

>> YOSUKE KANAKO: See you.